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That's a fair point, I guess... Legolas Send a noteboard - 29/07/2010 09:18:13 PM
I don't remember much of it (my fatal flaw in these conversations :P) but the jist was that, yes, these other women are all "Strong" in their relationships...

but BEFORE they were strong, they were weak (physically or otherwise) until they were "Saved" by a male vampire. So the basic idea was that these women were only portrayed as strong after they'd been saved by their men and given their place...by men.

But considering that these "Savings" other than Bella's took place off-screen and get little attention, I don't think it's a particularly strong point.
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Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy Larry - 28/07/2010 10:02:39 PM 1732 Views
Nonsense, at least in part Camilla - 28/07/2010 10:19:19 PM 1291 Views
I know there is a polite difference of opinion here Larry - 28/07/2010 10:40:42 PM 1107 Views
So we should judge the Iliad against modren fantasy novels? random thoughts - 29/07/2010 12:04:32 PM 1138 Views
i agree, and furthermore... LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:46:07 PM 1207 Views
Re: I know there is a polite difference of opinion here dacole - 29/07/2010 08:44:24 PM 1136 Views
Mno Camilla - 30/07/2010 09:07:18 AM 1223 Views
Have to agree. Seriana Sedai - 28/07/2010 11:38:37 PM 1194 Views
It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. Tim - 29/07/2010 09:44:53 AM 1023 Views
*cough* Twilight *cough* Ghavrel - 29/07/2010 10:15:13 AM 1064 Views
I was gonna mention that one too. Legolas - 29/07/2010 10:35:17 AM 1143 Views
Mmm. I read an interesting article actually... LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:24:04 PM 956 Views
That's a fair point, I guess... Legolas - 29/07/2010 09:18:13 PM 1159 Views
mmm, except it's relevant to Bella too. LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:43:03 PM 1037 Views
That's my point, it's pretty much only relevant to Bella - only there is it shown prominently. *NM* Legolas - 29/07/2010 10:59:54 PM 502 Views
Of course, since she's the main character, it matters rather a lot, yes? *NM* Ghavrel - 30/07/2010 09:39:07 AM 494 Views
It's hardly tacit. I'm glad I've never read the things. Ghavrel - 30/07/2010 09:38:33 AM 1158 Views
Fair enough. Legolas - 30/07/2010 10:03:07 AM 1153 Views
Also: the writing is crap. Rebekah - 29/07/2010 01:04:12 PM 1099 Views
but plenty of us hate it after reading *NM* LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:24:35 PM 472 Views
How much do you have to read to form an opinion? random thoughts - 29/07/2010 12:23:28 PM 1114 Views
To the end Camilla - 29/07/2010 12:59:25 PM 986 Views
my reading time is too scarce to think that way random thoughts - 29/07/2010 01:21:26 PM 1161 Views
I agree, but HP is a good example of something you should keep reading LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:27:20 PM 1179 Views
and I will random thoughts - 29/07/2010 09:13:03 PM 897 Views
that's fair enough then LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:43:57 PM 957 Views
so I hear random thoughts - 29/07/2010 11:13:09 PM 923 Views
Re: To the end dacole - 29/07/2010 08:49:06 PM 1042 Views
Re: To the end Camilla - 29/07/2010 10:34:44 PM 970 Views
Re: How much do you have to read to form an opinion? Legolas - 29/07/2010 01:49:21 PM 1139 Views
The books mature as Harry does. You should really give it another shot *NM* Dark Knight - 29/07/2010 03:00:37 PM 574 Views
He doesn't want to, so why should he? It's not like you or he is losing anything now Lordling - 29/07/2010 06:15:58 PM 985 Views
It is a case of the "someone is wrong on the internet" thing, only much older Camilla - 29/07/2010 06:27:07 PM 929 Views
well you have not failed completely random thoughts - 29/07/2010 06:50:15 PM 938 Views
Re: well you have not failed completely Camilla - 29/07/2010 06:53:38 PM 982 Views
one quick question random thoughts - 29/07/2010 07:38:00 PM 1014 Views
Re: one quick question Camilla - 29/07/2010 07:42:27 PM 1051 Views
well I am not a big enough hypocrite to look down on verbosity random thoughts - 29/07/2010 08:30:56 PM 958 Views
I have a new essay I want you to read Larry - 29/07/2010 07:44:40 PM 1086 Views
Re: I have a new essay I want you to read Camilla - 29/07/2010 10:42:05 PM 1043 Views
how many books do I have to read to get to the grown up books? random thoughts - 29/07/2010 06:42:37 PM 954 Views
Book 3 is the beginning of the adult ones, imo. Rebekah - 29/07/2010 06:44:07 PM 1058 Views
Agreed, although, Camilla - 29/07/2010 06:54:14 PM 1021 Views
None of them are "geared towards grown ups" - it's still a YA series. Legolas - 29/07/2010 07:03:24 PM 947 Views
They're all "light reading" for adults, geared towards YA readers. LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:29:01 PM 935 Views
Re: It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. dacole - 29/07/2010 08:45:58 PM 1064 Views
it's not supposed to be on par with adult fantasy. LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:49:16 PM 1062 Views
I'd argue it's better than Jordan and others from a literary standpoint. Rebekah - 29/07/2010 09:14:07 PM 1010 Views
I have always thought Jordan had some interesting themes but they were often ignored... random thoughts - 29/07/2010 09:27:12 PM 1157 Views
lol. it's hard to fail with such low preliminary standards *NM* LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:46:07 PM 504 Views
good points, i bow to your wisdom LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:45:29 PM 938 Views
Oh, agreed. Camilla - 30/07/2010 09:05:17 AM 1083 Views
Incidentall Camilla - 28/07/2010 10:39:52 PM 1046 Views
Ha! Larry - 28/07/2010 10:41:41 PM 1162 Views
Re: Ha! Camilla - 28/07/2010 10:45:38 PM 1052 Views
Ah Larry - 28/07/2010 10:49:22 PM 1100 Views
I agree Tolkien should not be a sacred cow or put on a pedestal overmuch. Legolas - 28/07/2010 11:10:37 PM 1128 Views
I can see your points there Larry - 28/07/2010 11:18:59 PM 1025 Views
I completely agree that there should be no sacred cows, and that applies to Tolkien. Tom - 28/07/2010 11:13:39 PM 1034 Views
I grow weary of people refusing to view LotR in context. Ghavrel - 28/07/2010 11:14:07 PM 1079 Views
all art forms have sacred cows random thoughts - 29/07/2010 01:38:26 AM 1136 Views
Yeah, it was the line about women waiting at home while their men went to war that made me laugh. Gher - 29/07/2010 06:44:34 PM 1027 Views
women deserve black lung too!! LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:35:17 PM 932 Views
nah the smart ones do like my grandmother did random thoughts - 29/07/2010 09:15:14 PM 998 Views
All Tolkien-haters are morons. fionwe1987 - 29/07/2010 03:30:27 AM 1300 Views
Disappointing. Werthead - 29/07/2010 04:41:34 AM 1089 Views
Re: Disappointing. Camilla - 29/07/2010 09:19:25 AM 1038 Views
Probably in the sense... Jacob - 29/07/2010 02:57:47 PM 968 Views
Perhaps more of 'a complication' to good discussion. Werthead - 29/07/2010 08:28:59 PM 935 Views
agreed. *NM* LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:32:36 PM 489 Views
I think you are ignoring the key fact that the Silmarillion was never published by Tolkien. Tom - 30/07/2010 01:48:14 PM 1334 Views
The Silmarillion was actually one of Tolkien's first works lyringlas - 30/07/2010 06:12:31 PM 1418 Views
No it wasn't. Tom - 30/07/2010 06:37:19 PM 1078 Views
Re: Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy dacole - 29/07/2010 08:42:04 PM 1088 Views
I find the Tolkien lovers to be obnoxious in their never ending masturbatory praise of his works. everynametaken - 30/07/2010 06:09:42 AM 1096 Views
This. *NM* Dan - 30/07/2010 07:43:24 PM 1179 Views
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