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Good. Legolas Send a noteboard - 17/12/2010 09:01:37 PM
My point about the Arabic language channels had far less to do with religious issues than it did with linguistic ones. Having significant minorities that refuse to even speak one's language is a looming problem in one way or another. The implied rejection of (or failure to even be exposed to) the historic culture of the country is a part of it, certainly, but not the whole picture.

I'm not convinced there is much of a linguistic issue in the French case. It could just be that the linguistic issue is so much worse in Belgium that I consider it to be negligible elsewhere, but I really don't see it being much of an issue. Let's not forget the vast majority of the Muslims in France hail from former French colonies and places where France remains an important language to this day (I've always wondered about that in Algeria's case, how they keep using French for so much even though there was that horrible, bloody war...). In France, like in Britain, the language argument is fairly minor in the whole immigration debate, as far as I can see.
Interestingly enough, one of the non-French foreign books I was thinking about getting is the much-talked-about and very controversial Deutschland Schafft Sich Ab. I'm not sure if I agree with it but I think it is worth a read. The real issue, to my mind, is less of a personal confessional nature per se and more of the cultural baggage that religions bring along. If any country has large bodies of immigrants that speak a different language and reject many or all of the fundamental premises of the society they have moved to, that country has problems. The message should be that if one wants to take advantage of a nation's opportunities to get rich, that person must accept its core social contract. But I digress.

I think most of what is in that book is probably quite sensible and not so controversial at all. But coming from an author in his position, and at the time it did, it was always going to cause a minor fuss, and some rather dubious details in the book (such as the part where he somehow convinced himself it'd be a good idea to comment on Jewish genetics) turned the minor fuss into a huge one. Merkel's reaction was particularly absurd, though, moving from a strong disapproval of the book to "the multicultural society has failed" in the space of two weeks.
While language does evolve naturally, the question is really WHY the passé simple is not present. Is it due to a natural evolution? If so, then why is the contrast between a relatively recent writer like Camus or Sartre with a fully contemporary writer so pronounced? To take the metaphor farther, what you are talking about sounds more like a language revolution, rather than a language evolution.

As I said, the position of the passé simple in the fifties was not very different from its current position: nearly extinct in the spoken language, not so in literature. The real question here is why a tense that has gone out of use is stubbornly clung to by authors for so long, and successfully at that (though several sites I've seen make the point that even among modern authors who still use the tense, many use it only in the third person). As for why it went out of use in the first place, the answer is fairly simple: because it's superfluous. Anything you want to use the passé simple for can be said in the other tenses, as you can see if you compare it to Spanish. The way it used to be, the three tenses - imperfect, simple past, present perfect - were used in roughly the same way in the two languages: imperfects for descriptions and background information, simple past for actual action, present perfect for actual action that was in the immediate past (I've seen claims that in sixteenth century French there was a simple rule specifying the line was drawn at 24 hours ago; in Spanish it's less clear-cut, at least nowadays). In Spanish, it still is that way, but in French the distinction between passé simple and passé composé was felt to be not very useful, the two started being used interchangeably, and so it became superfluous to have two tenses for the same thing. I'm going to need better sources than random internet pages to go into detail on the timeline of that whole evolution, but it's definitely something that had started long before the current malaise in France.
I'm not saying everything he's done or tried to do is right, just that the alternative party (the Socialists) is living in a little fantasy world.

Yeah, prehistorical monstrosity, as I said. It's hard to find any French politician that I'd prefer above Sarkozy, either because of their views or because of their personality. Fillon or Borloo, I suppose, but they aren't really serious candidates.
Yes, there is the antagonism. However, I am amazed that so many people in France could be so short-sighted. They make the average US voter look positively sagacious sometimes.

I don't think there is much of a difference between Western countries in terms of intelligence or short-sightedness of "the average voter". It's just that every country has its own hang-ups and points on which voters are blind or morons (or both). Far too many European voters really seem to think that if the state pays for something, it means they won't have to; American voters are quite clear on that point (and I definitely envy that sometimes), not so much on others.
I just happen to believe that the reduction of the richness of the language is indicative of a wider trend of reduction of the richness of the culture. It's highly unscientific but I feel it viscerally.

What, so you think the gradual extinction of the genitive in German is indicative of a reduction of the richness of German culture as well? Or perhaps you think Anglophone culture deteriorated as it lost its "thou"-form and was reduced to a single word "you" for all second-person personal pronouns, whereas French has two, Dutch and German have three, and Spanish has four? Or when it (mostly) lost its subjunctive tense? (Interesting that Southern American differs from the English-language mainstream in both of those aspects.) It's been often remarked that a good number of modern languages are less complex grammatically and morphologically than their ancestors - whether you compare the Romance languages to Latin, the Germanic ones to Old-Germanic, the Indic ones to Sanskrit, or the various kinds of modern spoken Arabic to Classical Arabic. I can't really see how you'd tie any link to deterioration in culture to that.
Very interesting idea. I want to think on that more.

Of course, the statement goes for Canada as a whole, to some extent, or at least the big three liberal bastions of Quebec, Ontario and BC.
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Maurice Druon - The Accursed Kings - 13/12/2010 08:19:21 PM 7693 Views
Thank you for giving this review - I had forgotten the name of the author and series. - 13/12/2010 09:29:59 PM 1572 Views
You're welcome (and thanks for the correction, edited). - 13/12/2010 10:23:55 PM 1606 Views
I know it's not "literary". (EDITED) - 13/12/2010 10:42:33 PM 1501 Views
Subjunctive imperfect, yeah. - 13/12/2010 10:51:34 PM 1576 Views
And with regard to your edit, I don't have a problem with passé simples myself. - 13/12/2010 10:53:59 PM 1928 Views
But how can one read any French literature at all without encountering the passé simple? - 15/12/2010 03:39:37 AM 1727 Views
The point is it is a "literary" tense - 15/12/2010 10:19:59 AM 1711 Views
Why would I read a lower style of book (I won't use the term "literature" to describe them) ? - 16/12/2010 06:11:36 AM 1511 Views
I don't want to start a fight here, but your attitude is seriously starting to grate. - 16/12/2010 06:54:30 PM 1781 Views
I don't care. Start a fight. - 16/12/2010 08:24:22 PM 1683 Views
Well, or we can have a civil debate on French culture, I suppose... also fun. - 16/12/2010 09:09:20 PM 1670 Views
Well, I'm up for that, too. - 17/12/2010 05:48:39 AM 1656 Views
Good. - 17/12/2010 09:01:37 PM 2012 Views
Ah - I support the subjunctive!!! - 18/12/2010 05:10:38 AM 1872 Views
TANGENT - 18/12/2010 09:56:31 AM 1764 Views
This whole conversation is just a pile of tangents, anyway. *NM* - 18/12/2010 01:30:09 PM 799 Views
I enjoy the tangent. - 21/12/2010 12:43:23 AM 1428 Views
But you don't think its disappearance corresponds to a decline in American culture? - 18/12/2010 01:29:43 PM 1659 Views
I read Der Zauberberg in English already. - 21/12/2010 12:48:16 AM 1495 Views
About the passé simple, what Camilla said. As for medieval vocabulary... - 15/12/2010 07:17:44 PM 1675 Views
"Ne...point" is used in Stendhal all the time. - 16/12/2010 06:08:40 AM 1556 Views
That looks like a really fascinating series. - 13/12/2010 10:56:52 PM 1626 Views
Step up your French lessons!!! - 13/12/2010 11:50:21 PM 1814 Views
That is a great reason to learn French. - 14/12/2010 07:29:54 PM 1536 Views
Re: That is a great reason to learn French. - 14/12/2010 08:13:59 PM 1552 Views
Fancier English often turns out to be French, of course. *NM* - 17/12/2010 06:41:19 PM 880 Views
Ooooh - 14/12/2010 07:41:03 PM 1464 Views
I'm really not quite sure how you managed that. - 14/12/2010 08:09:55 PM 1616 Views
Re: I'm really not quite sure how you managed that. - 14/12/2010 08:13:48 PM 1521 Views
I meant Bertière, yeah. Dumas works too, though. - 14/12/2010 08:18:30 PM 1591 Views

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