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But you don't think its disappearance corresponds to a decline in American culture? Legolas Send a noteboard - 18/12/2010 01:29:43 PM
Many people around here can tell you that misuse of the subjunctive or failure to use the subjunctive is a major pet peeve of mine. A sad commentary on the state of education is that the hypercorrection of "me" to "I" has supplanted the subjunctive misuse as the thing that most irritates me, linguistically, in my native language. I've heard people say, "Well, between you and me...sorry, between you and I ... ". I usually tell them they're wrong unless they're paying clients, in which case they can say whatever they want to. Even then, if I know them well and know they won't be offended I would correct a client.

Yeah, somehow I'm not surprised. ;)
I do not have a problem with the evolution of languages. The way that predicate pronouns somehow end up being in oblique cases in English and French - "it's me" or "c'est moi" - is not something that gets me outraged. However, any time nuances of speech are lost I get irritated.

Fair enough, but the point here was that the French language has evolved to a point where the passé simple is no longer necessary to express those nuances. Some authors do still make that old distinction and feel that it does have its own connotation and nuance still, but in the spoken language that's just not the case anymore.

It's not that I'm opposed to the passé simple or want it to disappear, per se, it's just I'm offended by your implication that one has to use it to write good literature nowadays, or that people who don't use it lack culture.
I don't like the increasing loss of the genitive in German. I fight it when I say things in German. I make a point of using the genitive. Of course, I also support using the words that make Germans uncomfortable, like Volk and Reich and Führer. There's nothing wrong with the words just because one asshole using the name decided to start the bloodiest war in history and gas about 8 million people to death (I'm using the more conservative and proven number there). It's even more absurd than the way the Harry Potter people can't say "Voldemort". I would draw the line if someone started talking about defending Blut und Boden.

Eight million is the more conservative and proven number now? I've always heard six. Not that it really matters.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with the words, but otoh I can't blame the Germans if those words have certain connotations for them. Part of getting familiar with a culture is learning which words or concepts or historical topics are particularly sensitive, and how one can unintentionally cause offense by bringing those up. Being aware of such sensitivities and intentionally ignoring them seems like a good way to piss a lot of people off. But there may be cases, it's true, when that is a price you're willing to pay because you have some overriding purpose.
But to get back to your points, I have no problems if Algerians and Lebanese move to France to live the cosmopolitan French life and accept the French culture. The problem is when people from traditional Muslim families think they can beat their wives and force their daughters to wear the hijab or, worse, think that honor killing is okay. The latter group tends to also not learn the language, be it French, Dutch, German, Danish, Swedish or whatever.

I don't think that last sentence really follows from the rest. Or rather, it does perhaps follow that they'd be less willing to put much effort into learning the language, but since most of them would already know some French before even going to France, they don't need to do as much effort. I can hardly claim to be an expert on France or the multicultural society in France, but it's just never seemed to me that a lack of decent French among the immigrants was any serious issue there. It's perfectly possible to do all those other things you name and generally refuse to integrate, while still speaking tolerable French.
Oh, and I bought that book from amazon.de along with Remarque (Im Westen Nichts Neues) and Mann (Der Zauberberg, which I read in English and Buddenbrooks).

I didn't even know that was the original title of the Remarque. I tried reading Der Zauberberg once, albeit in translation, but I never got very far. I'm not what one would call well-read in German, I fear.
Finally, I am personally glad that the American voter, for whatever other failings he may have, understands that the government paying for something means, essentially, that his taxes go up.

Yeah. Would be nice to have that here too.
Sorry. That wasn't my final point. My final point is that I want to bring back "thou" in English because it has a valid function. I think it is particularly important because too many Americans, especially in the Facebook age, have a very poor ability to distinguish real friends from acquaintances.

Good idea. Though then the question becomes which of the functions you want it to have - modern speakers using "thou" use it as the polite variant, but I seem to recall that originally it was actually the other way around and it was "you" that was the polite one.
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Maurice Druon - The Accursed Kings - 13/12/2010 08:19:21 PM 7701 Views
Thank you for giving this review - I had forgotten the name of the author and series. - 13/12/2010 09:29:59 PM 1574 Views
You're welcome (and thanks for the correction, edited). - 13/12/2010 10:23:55 PM 1609 Views
I know it's not "literary". (EDITED) - 13/12/2010 10:42:33 PM 1504 Views
Subjunctive imperfect, yeah. - 13/12/2010 10:51:34 PM 1578 Views
And with regard to your edit, I don't have a problem with passé simples myself. - 13/12/2010 10:53:59 PM 1932 Views
But how can one read any French literature at all without encountering the passé simple? - 15/12/2010 03:39:37 AM 1729 Views
The point is it is a "literary" tense - 15/12/2010 10:19:59 AM 1715 Views
Why would I read a lower style of book (I won't use the term "literature" to describe them) ? - 16/12/2010 06:11:36 AM 1513 Views
I don't want to start a fight here, but your attitude is seriously starting to grate. - 16/12/2010 06:54:30 PM 1784 Views
I don't care. Start a fight. - 16/12/2010 08:24:22 PM 1686 Views
Well, or we can have a civil debate on French culture, I suppose... also fun. - 16/12/2010 09:09:20 PM 1672 Views
Well, I'm up for that, too. - 17/12/2010 05:48:39 AM 1659 Views
Good. - 17/12/2010 09:01:37 PM 2015 Views
Ah - I support the subjunctive!!! - 18/12/2010 05:10:38 AM 1877 Views
TANGENT - 18/12/2010 09:56:31 AM 1766 Views
This whole conversation is just a pile of tangents, anyway. *NM* - 18/12/2010 01:30:09 PM 801 Views
I enjoy the tangent. - 21/12/2010 12:43:23 AM 1432 Views
But you don't think its disappearance corresponds to a decline in American culture? - 18/12/2010 01:29:43 PM 1662 Views
I read Der Zauberberg in English already. - 21/12/2010 12:48:16 AM 1497 Views
About the passé simple, what Camilla said. As for medieval vocabulary... - 15/12/2010 07:17:44 PM 1680 Views
"Ne...point" is used in Stendhal all the time. - 16/12/2010 06:08:40 AM 1558 Views
That looks like a really fascinating series. - 13/12/2010 10:56:52 PM 1628 Views
Step up your French lessons!!! - 13/12/2010 11:50:21 PM 1816 Views
That is a great reason to learn French. - 14/12/2010 07:29:54 PM 1540 Views
Re: That is a great reason to learn French. - 14/12/2010 08:13:59 PM 1554 Views
Fancier English often turns out to be French, of course. *NM* - 17/12/2010 06:41:19 PM 881 Views
Ooooh - 14/12/2010 07:41:03 PM 1466 Views
I'm really not quite sure how you managed that. - 14/12/2010 08:09:55 PM 1619 Views
Re: I'm really not quite sure how you managed that. - 14/12/2010 08:13:48 PM 1524 Views
I meant Bertière, yeah. Dumas works too, though. - 14/12/2010 08:18:30 PM 1595 Views

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