Active Users:609 Time:04/06/2026 11:50:06 AM
Nice attempt at sophistry, but alas, it fails Larry Send a noteboard - 11/09/2012 12:38:24 AM
I've had this discussion a few times with Camilla, not least when I extol the virtues of a Dan Brown novel as a well written book for it's audience. As long as the book tells a good story and the writing doesn't get in the way of that, job done, it's well written.

Literature students and snobs amuse me as much as artsy film snobs, who dont think a movie is worthwile unless it's a 4hours long, black and white, subtitled, film from the Czech Republic.


It fails because if one wants to reject a quantitative approach toward assessing prose quality, then one would have to also reject out of hand the notion of "good story" as being something that is defined by itself. Since the former (the prose)'s rejection would constitute a further rejection of anything other than a relativist approach, that in turn would lead to exceptions being made in order to try and slip out of the counter that if there is no real quantitative approach and if it is all relative, then there could be no cause to use pejoratives to denounce those who utilize their own judgment to assess the poorness of the work at hand.

Now assuming that you really meant that there was this ill-defined notion of "good story" as being like obscenity, which is "I know it when I see it," then the question arises of whether or not others may reject your evaluative tools as being insufficient. Here, like in civil law, judgment would weigh on "preponderance of evidence" and not solely on individual perceptions. Now I suppose I could quote examples from what I have read in the Legends trilogy in support of my assertion that the prose is subpar in comparison to other fictions originally intended for an age 10-16 audience and perhaps you could counter that with....with what?

Here's the crux. I'm willing to provide evidence from the text itself. Are you going to do more than just say "good story" without qualifying it?

Then there's another angle, one that I think is the easiest for all involved. For this approach, one can simply admit that based on communal "standards" (which have some leeway, but are not so flexible as to admit all things), there are writings that would be considered poor based on societal expectations of what constitutes "good writing," but yet due to other, perhaps more idiosyncratic individual values (primary of plot over theme/characterization/prose, particular theme at the expense of prose/characterization, etc.) there are elements that one can enjoy while admitting that for the majority, such a work would be "trashy" or "poor." That is what I would do when asked to explain why I enjoy watching professional wrestling ;)
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
Reply to message
This may be one of the most dire reviews you shall ever read - 09/09/2012 09:12:25 PM 2428 Views
Certainly one of the most original, you get points for that. - 09/09/2012 10:39:00 PM 1665 Views
Well... - 09/09/2012 10:57:25 PM 1679 Views
A review of a D&D bestiary could be more dire. - 09/09/2012 11:29:17 PM 1515 Views
Perhaps - 09/09/2012 11:50:20 PM 1607 Views
Hey now. Owlbears are awesome. - 11/09/2012 02:35:28 AM 1858 Views
That page is painful to behold - 11/09/2012 03:09:29 AM 1616 Views
They are popular as they are fun, easy reading books - 10/09/2012 12:11:24 AM 1593 Views
"Popular", "Fun," and "Easy" doesn't have to be equated with poorly-written - 10/09/2012 12:16:27 AM 1834 Views
Poorly written by what standard? - 10/09/2012 12:29:17 AM 1686 Views
By the standards of what I enjoyed as a nine year-old? - 10/09/2012 01:04:12 AM 1636 Views
So like I said, by the standards of Elitist Literary Snobs - 11/09/2012 12:03:08 AM 1697 Views
Nice attempt at sophistry, but alas, it fails - 11/09/2012 12:38:24 AM 1640 Views
Was that meant to make any sense? - 11/09/2012 01:43:13 AM 1849 Views
Re: Was that meant to make any sense? - 11/09/2012 01:54:23 AM 1644 Views
I'm with Wibble on this (big surprise) - 12/09/2012 03:07:53 PM 1720 Views
Heh. - 12/09/2012 03:43:52 PM 1864 Views
Pretty much so - 12/09/2012 04:19:35 PM 1819 Views
When did you put up that header? - 12/09/2012 04:35:20 PM 1655 Views
I didn't put it up - 12/09/2012 04:51:32 PM 1553 Views
I shall tread lightly so. - 12/09/2012 06:15:51 PM 1676 Views
- 12/09/2012 07:25:29 PM 1526 Views
+6 health? What game are you playing? - 12/09/2012 07:52:52 PM 1584 Views
The Game of Life? - 12/09/2012 08:23:53 PM 1636 Views
Re: Pretty much so - 12/09/2012 08:50:57 PM 1670 Views
You apparently do not read my blog/reviews much - 12/09/2012 09:07:18 PM 1690 Views
Actually, I read them almost never - 13/09/2012 03:07:48 PM 1703 Views
I think my IQ dropped a little bit when I parsed what you said - 13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM 1662 Views
Yep, your usual rebuttal... *NM* - 17/09/2012 02:14:56 PM 842 Views
No, not really - 17/09/2012 06:25:15 PM 1502 Views
Yes, Yes, wrap yourself in arrogance and declare yourself correct until your opposite gets bored... - 17/09/2012 11:12:17 PM 1783 Views
Nah, I just wipe my ass with arrogance - 18/09/2012 12:23:44 AM 2043 Views
The last word with me is rather difficult to obtain - 18/09/2012 02:48:03 PM 1594 Views
Don't try to argue with them. They've made their judgments. They are better than you. - 10/09/2012 09:36:17 PM 1617 Views
Defensive much? *NM* - 10/09/2012 10:31:17 PM 883 Views
He never said you couldn't enjoy it. - 10/09/2012 11:10:11 PM 1754 Views
Indeed - 10/09/2012 11:17:20 PM 1609 Views
But they aren't. - 10/09/2012 11:48:14 PM 1644 Views
Prove it. *NM* - 11/09/2012 03:12:17 AM 814 Views
He also went on to compare liking the books to having the standards of a nine-year-old. - 11/09/2012 02:34:18 AM 1607 Views
You didn't read what I said very well then - 11/09/2012 03:16:21 AM 1601 Views
I believe that they were not meant for adults. - 10/09/2012 12:30:05 AM 1642 Views
Basically, both get dubious kudos for trying something new by the dire standards of the day. - 10/09/2012 11:38:22 PM 1673 Views
Interesting point - 11/09/2012 12:41:01 AM 1601 Views
Are you aware of the game's alignment rules? Some of the novels struggle with this. - 12/09/2012 10:58:37 PM 1670 Views
Not aware of it at all until now - 12/09/2012 11:18:57 PM 1625 Views
How is that possible? - 12/09/2012 11:28:33 PM 1600 Views
My dad was (and is) influenced by Evangelicals - 13/09/2012 12:17:36 AM 1518 Views
Wait, so you didn't read the Chronicles first? - 13/09/2012 02:12:13 PM 1534 Views
No - 13/09/2012 02:18:03 PM 1593 Views
Well, it's sort of like starting Jordan at Lord of Chaos - 13/09/2012 05:18:23 PM 1623 Views
Oddly enough, I started WoT at CoS in November 1997 - 13/09/2012 05:56:04 PM 1531 Views
Chronicles is considerably weaker - 13/09/2012 11:14:38 PM 1620 Views
12 modules, not 15 - 14/09/2012 02:55:39 PM 1800 Views
These threads are so much better than the rape threads! *NM* - 12/09/2012 04:03:01 AM 915 Views
You're just waiting to see if I'll use hexameter in the next one *NM* - 12/09/2012 04:32:31 AM 745 Views
When do we get to see some alexandrines? *NM* - 12/09/2012 12:41:29 PM 811 Views
Or quatrains? - 12/09/2012 03:25:13 PM 1502 Views
At least you didn't read the Baldur's Gate novelizations - 14/09/2012 04:29:17 AM 1538 Views
Sssssh! - 14/09/2012 05:10:19 AM 1596 Views
People become lesbians for no reason! - 17/09/2012 04:34:20 PM 1466 Views
I think my IQ dropped further upon learning of this - 17/09/2012 06:29:29 PM 1490 Views
Baldurs Gate wooooo! - 14/09/2012 04:13:34 PM 1727 Views
Is the review dire because of the subject or the sonnet form? - 14/09/2012 04:24:37 PM 1647 Views
Both - 14/09/2012 04:36:59 PM 1563 Views
it would be unusual for someone to just randomly pick books like that up - 14/09/2012 05:05:37 PM 1872 Views
Interesting scenario - 14/09/2012 10:16:11 PM 1571 Views
Re: Interesting scenario - 15/09/2012 09:55:59 AM 1828 Views
Re: Interesting scenario - 17/09/2012 06:28:57 PM 1487 Views

Reply to Message