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I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" Larry Send a noteboard - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM
It can not be an Ecological or Environmental book ass we define it today (preservation of, or return to a natural state), because the Freman are attempting to change the state of the planet into something else. Would you call a book titles "1,001 Ways To Polute" an Environmental book?


Since I've been self-studying Attic Greek recently, I'll note that the word comes from Oikos (house) and logia (study, study of). It's an examination of how organisms affect and are affected by other members, living and non-living alike, of local and global systems. As such, describing Dune as an "ecological" novel would be correct, in as far as noting how the environment of Arrakis shapes and is shaped by humans and how human views on the spice melange, trading arrangements, the Guild Steersmen, Bene Gesserit, etc. are affected by the processes that lead to the development of this precious substance.

The Barron is a deviant because he deviates fromm what is the societal norm. By that definition, yes homosexuallity is deviant (though I personally don't have an issue withit as long as my preferences are respected as well). However, homosexuallity (actually it is bi-sexuallity with a homosexual prefernce) is the absolute least of his many deviant behaviors.


But yet for some, having that as among his many "deviant" behaviors might be taken as a confirmation of sorts that such sexual behavior is "deviant" in the pejorative sense of the word? I noted it because it runs counter to the more positive portrayals of homosexuality in more recent SF novels.

If you insist on focusing your attention upon your perceived themes of ecology and homophobia you will miss the entire point of the books. You are making up your own themes, ones the author did not intend to include, did not develop within the book, and usinng them to promote your own position. In my opinion you are performing theft. You are stealing the Authors Work, and perverting it. This is why I object to the entire "The Author is Dead" school that you jokingly refer to.


You think there's a single, immutable "point" to the book into which you have a privileged insight? I don't presume such and I would suggest that you be very cautious in trying to view things in such a light. I'm well-schooled in interpretative approaches and their limitations and dangers and what I'm doing is exploring some of the possible interpretations that occur to me as I re-read these books. I don't claim absolute truth, nor do I view as sacrosanct the notion of "authorial intent," which is limited and misleading as well. Texts are not immutable, or else adherents to the world's religions would have single interpretations of their content. Same holds true for fictional works. Please keep that in mind.
If you want to discuss Environmental issues, use an environmental book, and have fun. Do not take a book that delves into the impact of religion, economics, abuse of power and pervert it. There is plenty do discuss and explore within the Dune universe without your fabrications.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 1976 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 1094 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1278 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1209 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1210 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1260 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 1067 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 1102 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 979 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 945 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 925 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 1071 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 1001 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 979 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 1020 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 969 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 1000 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 1087 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 961 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 954 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 848 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 1005 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 1082 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 972 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 977 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1459 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 479 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 1152 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 1109 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1174 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1358 Views
I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series - 20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM 1120 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1301 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 996 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1555 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1351 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1307 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1233 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 995 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 423 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 427 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1223 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 944 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 895 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 898 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 817 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 938 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 825 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 1053 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 1018 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 992 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 904 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 1249 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 887 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 845 Views
God Emperor of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 25/04/2010 02:03:37 AM 1125 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 859 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 933 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 889 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1236 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 1045 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 1084 Views

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