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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already Tom Send a noteboard - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM
Americans are generally ignorant about their "native" language. Our schools lack discipline and rigor (or rigour) and so entire generations of students don't even know the simplest grammar rules, like those dealing with pronouns.

For some reason, people can't decline two pronouns at the same time if one is "I" (or decline "I" when used together with a noun). The typical grammatical error of the past generation, along the lines of "Me and you went to the store", was corrected by teachers quite frequently: "No, say 'You and I went to the store.'"

However, the teachers were just too lazy, stupid or indifferent to continue the explanation of just WHY the previous example should be "Sally and I" instead of "Me and Sally". The conclusion many have come to (apparently), is that the proper form is "I" whenever there are two pronouns or "I" is used with a noun. This has led to some completely incorrect sentences, such as:

"For you and I, this is important."
"I don't know what they are going to do about you and I."
"He saw you and I, didn't he?"

Interestingly enough, the problem seems to be with "I", and only with "I". For some reason, people don't get the simple principle that "I" only appears as "I" when used as the subject of a sentence. As a direct object, indirect object or object of a preposition, it's always "me". I suspect that most of the people who make the mistake would not make it if the first person singular pronoun appeared by itself. I haven't heard, even once, sentences like:

"For I, this is important."
"I don't know what they are going to do about I."
"He saw I, didn't he?"

This error irritates me more than saying "hold down the fort".

Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 985 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 192 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 174 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 157 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 163 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 204 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 102 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 201 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 291 Views
Actually nothing like that - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 148 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 210 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 197 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 203 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 166 Views
*NM* - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 80 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 186 Views
*cough* move along... - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 183 Views
That annoys me, too - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 316 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 193 Views
No - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 147 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 369 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 389 Views
Er, no... - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 150 Views
Re: Er, no... - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 153 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 187 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 197 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 168 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 345 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 159 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 155 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 143 Views
Sorted - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 355 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 197 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 265 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 185 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 405 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 169 Views
Along these lines - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 356 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 182 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 169 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 188 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 226 Views
Not limited to the US of A. - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 356 Views
If you're going to start down that path... - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 175 Views
Personally - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 136 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 211 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 358 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 394 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 270 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 335 Views
Fair enough. - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 138 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 71 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 141 Views
<chant> - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 143 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 141 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 331 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 75 Views
Example please? *NM* - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 196 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 136 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 342 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 143 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 133 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 142 Views
Well... - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 340 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 334 Views
I know that - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 260 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 255 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 143 Views
I know it's dative in Latin - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 339 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 122 Views
And you would be wrong in that. - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 142 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 126 Views
You still just aren't getting this. - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 126 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 73 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9289 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 65 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 324 Views
That was atrocious Latin. - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 327 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 139 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 68 Views
C'est moi. - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 337 Views
One additional thought. - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 274 Views
Let me clarify. - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 133 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 131 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 166 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 67 Views
That is what I was taught... - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 392 Views
Same. - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 125 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 217 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 158 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 175 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 259 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 271 Views
True - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 132 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 334 Views
I guess I did - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 396 Views
Those all sound boring. - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 292 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 330 Views
- 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 246 Views

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