We're having this conversation because, while 911 wasn't about Islam, and while a lot of people want to keep it that way, a few very loud people want very much to change that. Some want to use 911 to demonize all Muslims. Some want to use 911 to show that since Islam and Muslims suffered, in some cases even died, it's a chance to demonstrate Islams peaceful brotherhood by building bridges. Right. If they want to build bridges and foster healing, fulfill the charitable pillar of Islam and donate to a victims relief fund. They don't even have to put anyones name or title on it to say, "SEE? Islam does GOOD things!"
And if they don't make it known then how is public opinion of them ever going to change? They could be utter saints and if it is top secret people will still hate them.
The only way to change public image and opinion is to do things publicly.
Exactly. They do still have every right to comment on it though. At the risk of parroting the far right, I've heard NO ONE suggest that the mosque CAN'T be built, just a lot of people saying it SHOULDN'T be, at least not at that location. Even Sarah Palin is on record to that effect, even though she said almost in the same breath that Obamas earlier statement that it would be un-American to stop it shows he "doesn't get it. " Legally, if not morally, in America you can judge both people and their behavior--you just can't impose your judgments on them.
So by advocating strongly that this is dumb and shifting public opinion with that stance, you aren't imposing judgement? Of course you are. You are just masking it - or letting others take the blame for it.
Yes, you are entitled to express your opinion. But if you wish to be fair and clear you should make clear that while you dislike their choice to do X you fully support their right to do it.
Myself I don't much know (or care) if it is a 'good idea' or not. Because it's none of my business. It is, however, their right to do what they wish with their land. That's what I am defending.
My mistake; I was under the impression Manhattan was larger than 500 square feet (how'd they fit hundreds of mosques into that small a space?
)
If this isn't about rehabilitating Islam after 911 why does it have to be a mosque and community center? Why not just a community center with a non-sectarian area for prayer, reflection and meditation?
)If this isn't about rehabilitating Islam after 911 why does it have to be a mosque and community center? Why not just a community center with a non-sectarian area for prayer, reflection and meditation?
Quite likely it's because the one mosque already in the area (yes there is one) is packed so full that people are already USING this building, even though it's still a largely vacant ex-coat factory - as a mosque. With the other one full to overflowing they have no real choice. Why do they want to build a mosque in there? Because they NEED one. That simple really.
I understand the desire to say, "but we're not like them!" yet the fact remains that building an Islamic religious institution right next to where thousands were murdered in the name of Islam is the exact opposite of disassociating 911 from Islam.
I'm sorry - I really have an issue with calling something two football fields away, around a corner and entirely out of line of sight 'right next to' anything.
It's only 'right next to' it because you don't like it.
So what isn't right next to it then? Four hundred yards? Six hundred yards? A kilometer? Two? What's good enough?
Actually, the US Constitution says I can say almost anything I please. The same part that guarantees their right to build the mosque guarantees my right to bitch about them building the mosque; it took a SCOTUS ruling less than a century old to deny my "right" to cause a riot through speech.
Fair enough. Bitch that you don't like it. But while doing so qualify that you also respect the Constitution and their rights to do what they please with their property and have their religion protected.
Because, you see, what you are bitching about IS a form of religious persecution. It is because if it was another religion (say, yours) you wouldn't be bitching.
And you know what? If radical Christians had crashed those planes, you still wouldn't be bitching.
No, no one would say anything if a Christian church were built across the street from the WTC, but they might feel differently if a Catholic church with the mission of healing the damage of the Crusades and spreading the word that the Crusaders killed Christians, too, were built in, say, Damascus. Or Antioch. Or Jerusalem. Some might say it was in bad taste. Others, of course, would just declare jihad and start training suicide bombers.
The reason they want to build a mosque there is the very reason they shouldn't. They have every right to do so, just as I have every right to smoke a pack a day, but we also each have the right to call the others behavior foolish.
The reason they want to build a mosque there is the very reason they shouldn't. They have every right to do so, just as I have every right to smoke a pack a day, but we also each have the right to call the others behavior foolish.
The Crusades were almost a thousand years ago and anyone still freaking about that or upset by that should grow a brain or exit the human race. It's quite literally ANCIENT history and the people, their culture and their times are long gone. They are no longer socially relevant save as historical examples.
There are lots of muslims in New York and even in Manhattan. And if they need a new place to pray because, unlike all the slowly emptying Christian Churches, their demographic needs one, then they should be allowed to build one wherever they (legally) are allowed to do so.
Really, it's that simple.
May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk.
Old Egyptian Blessing
Old Egyptian Blessing
Wait, wait WAIT! The location for the so-called "mosque at ground zero" is actually 2 blocks away?!
- 17/08/2010 03:19:02 PM
2659 Views
Another stupid question...is it even actually a mosque?
- 17/08/2010 03:28:37 PM
1510 Views
it's both from what I've heard.
- 17/08/2010 04:00:54 PM
1425 Views
sort of like most churches, mosques and temples? *NM*
- 17/08/2010 04:04:12 PM
722 Views
mmm, i think more like...
- 17/08/2010 04:08:55 PM
1406 Views
my wife's church has a play ground and community center
- 17/08/2010 04:47:52 PM
1428 Views
Been hearing a lot on NPR
- 17/08/2010 03:32:42 PM
1503 Views
I could see it being insensitive if it were actually where the towers used to be.
- 17/08/2010 03:43:18 PM
1595 Views
This could be part of the reason that most of the opposition doesn't seem to be coming from locals.
- 17/08/2010 03:53:06 PM
1507 Views
seriously, it's not like property is some ample commodity in NYC *NM*
- 17/08/2010 04:03:24 PM
764 Views
you should probably keep in mind....
- 17/08/2010 04:02:25 PM
1526 Views
So
- 17/08/2010 04:06:18 PM
1578 Views
Ground Zero specifically refers to the north and south towers where the planes struck...
- 17/08/2010 04:26:40 PM
1495 Views
it certainly has turned into a political land mine for Obama...
- 17/08/2010 03:54:03 PM
1444 Views
True
- 17/08/2010 04:02:04 PM
1245 Views
unfortunately...
- 17/08/2010 04:05:08 PM
1396 Views
This is beginning to sound familiar.
- 17/08/2010 05:18:37 PM
1632 Views
with the senate majority leader weighing it I don't believe it is all how it is mostly on the right
- 17/08/2010 05:58:10 PM
1510 Views
Well, since day 1 of this whole debate alot of the opposition has come from the right.
- 17/08/2010 10:50:49 PM
1499 Views
you assume it is pandering maybe they just agree with the majority
- 18/08/2010 02:30:53 AM
1419 Views
I'm not saying it's a partisan issue, but it has turned political for all the wrong reasons.
- 18/08/2010 04:18:49 AM
1581 Views
is the idea that it is not to close to ground zero the misinformation you are refering to?
- 18/08/2010 03:09:17 PM
1422 Views
Well, it's not like they're literally on ground zero.
- 18/08/2010 08:54:08 PM
1585 Views
Guess which of them will be out of a job in January?
- 18/08/2010 01:22:49 PM
1441 Views
- 18/08/2010 01:22:49 PM
1441 Views
the only reason Obama won't be out of job is he isn't running
- 18/08/2010 03:10:58 PM
1394 Views
Oh, I dunno if you could translate the current numbers into Obamas defeat.
- 18/08/2010 03:52:18 PM
1451 Views
it was a large event so two half blocks really is pretty damn close
- 17/08/2010 04:03:17 PM
1542 Views
Here's a map of the site for perspective
- 17/08/2010 04:08:41 PM
1599 Views
so 2 blocks from the superblock then?
- 17/08/2010 04:13:03 PM
1645 Views
I guess, superblock is an obscure term to this country lad
- 17/08/2010 04:41:11 PM
1413 Views
It may not necessarily matter to people who are aware of that fact.
- 17/08/2010 05:13:12 PM
1397 Views
mk, well, to my mind (being from phoeni
, 1 full city block is about 1 mile.
- 17/08/2010 05:15:49 PM
1463 Views
, 1 full city block is about 1 mile.
- 17/08/2010 05:15:49 PM
1463 Views
A mile is a serious exaggeration, surely.
- 17/08/2010 05:24:48 PM
1584 Views
Remember, I did say in Phoenix
- 17/08/2010 05:27:43 PM
1505 Views
- 17/08/2010 05:27:43 PM
1505 Views
I really need to see Phoenix some day.
- 17/08/2010 05:32:40 PM
1498 Views
i still think houston is more spread out than phoenix
- 18/08/2010 08:21:10 AM
1496 Views
unless you go far enough west of course
- 18/08/2010 03:30:45 PM
1362 Views
Absolutely.
- 17/08/2010 05:28:38 PM
1476 Views
Yeah, and it seems to be about 10 autobuses in distance on Google Earth.
- 17/08/2010 05:29:43 PM
1361 Views
Google Earth says 500 feet between mosque and GZ *NM*
- 17/08/2010 05:30:59 PM
688 Views
*edit* Just for reference... one mile = 5280 feet, 500ft = approx 1/10 of a mile.
- 17/08/2010 06:26:19 PM
1436 Views
Judging by Google Earth, the blocks inbetween both contain a single large building. (edit)
- 17/08/2010 07:08:05 PM
1341 Views
Clarify: 500 ft between the mosque and the border of the area on the map? *NM*
- 17/08/2010 07:03:51 PM
698 Views
Personally, I think this supports Ave's point.
- 17/08/2010 04:16:15 PM
1520 Views
You know what else is on Park Place? A strip club.
- 17/08/2010 11:58:56 PM
1399 Views
Really? I had no idea
- 18/08/2010 12:06:27 AM
1475 Views
Re: Really? I had no idea
- 18/08/2010 12:24:54 AM
1488 Views
Hmm...
- 18/08/2010 01:23:14 AM
1424 Views
knowing there's a strip club and "walking those streets"; seems like you've "gotten around"
- 18/08/2010 02:03:14 AM
1454 Views
- 18/08/2010 02:03:14 AM
1454 Views
They're building on the hallowed ground of a Burlington Coat Factory!
- 17/08/2010 04:13:06 PM
1493 Views
how so?
- 17/08/2010 04:14:17 PM
1324 Views
From when the Moors conquered Spain
- 17/08/2010 04:18:18 PM
1574 Views
to clarify though
- 17/08/2010 04:50:19 PM
1369 Views
Yes, but you have to remember the mindset of those protesting.
- 17/08/2010 09:49:26 PM
1447 Views
Sorry, but the card says it was "the Moops" so you must be wrong.
- 18/08/2010 03:56:11 PM
1425 Views
Ezra Klein made a good point in the Washington Post...
- 17/08/2010 04:33:31 PM
1360 Views
that is hardly the same thing
- 17/08/2010 04:56:43 PM
1448 Views
My question is, why would you want to put a mosque/community center/thing that close?
- 17/08/2010 04:39:05 PM
1384 Views
angry New Yorkers?
- 17/08/2010 04:45:01 PM
1508 Views
I was going to guess 4 protests to your earlier post.
- 17/08/2010 04:50:08 PM
1479 Views
- 17/08/2010 04:50:08 PM
1479 Views
We do not live in fear of what "a few crazy people" might do. *NM*
- 18/08/2010 12:02:06 AM
672 Views
Re: angry New Yorkers?
- 17/08/2010 04:53:58 PM
1416 Views
I was wondering about that.
- 17/08/2010 04:56:28 PM
1516 Views
angry New Yorkers? Geez, we are more civilized than that, thank you. *NM*
- 18/08/2010 12:01:12 AM
675 Views
not really *NM*
- 18/08/2010 02:31:46 AM
599 Views
your opinion is noted. now go eff yourself. *NM*
- 18/08/2010 04:11:25 AM
644 Views
that's pretty good
- 18/08/2010 04:44:14 AM
1417 Views
That's right. Why resort to violence when a good rant will do? *NM*
- 18/08/2010 06:09:27 AM
659 Views
and a heart fuck off to you but thanks for the ironic reply *NM*
- 18/08/2010 03:18:25 PM
676 Views
How is it ironic? *NM*
- 18/08/2010 03:43:50 PM
750 Views
How was his uncivilized response ironic? *NM*
- 18/08/2010 04:18:17 PM
658 Views
Re: How was his uncivilized response ironic?
- 18/08/2010 04:23:25 PM
1355 Views
Aaah
- 18/08/2010 04:31:02 PM
1419 Views
Because the building is cheap as hell, because they're mostly abandoned in those areas
- 18/08/2010 01:25:13 AM
1430 Views
Something I'm confused on
- 17/08/2010 04:59:41 PM
1688 Views
another thing to consider.
- 17/08/2010 05:02:38 PM
1381 Views
You'll have to explain to me what that has to do with what I said
- 17/08/2010 05:10:21 PM
1371 Views
Of course you're confused. It was a tangental thought.
- 17/08/2010 06:06:29 PM
1425 Views
Fair enough, I can't really criticize others for going off on tangents since I do it so much
*NM*
- 17/08/2010 06:36:54 PM
690 Views
*NM*
- 17/08/2010 06:36:54 PM
690 Views
From what I understand, there's another mosque very close to the site
- 17/08/2010 05:06:26 PM
1555 Views
I understand there's also a strip club and a xxx movie rental shop within that same 2 blocks radius.
- 17/08/2010 05:09:26 PM
1468 Views
True but the buildings were not nocked down by radical strippers
*NM*
- 17/08/2010 05:52:04 PM
698 Views
*NM*
- 17/08/2010 05:52:04 PM
698 Views
What do strip clubs and dirty movies and gay bars have to do with 9/11?
*NM*
- 18/08/2010 12:33:59 AM
706 Views
*NM*
- 18/08/2010 12:33:59 AM
706 Views
Nothing, which is precisely the point. *NM*
- 18/08/2010 12:37:52 AM
712 Views
Can you explain your point to me then? Because I'm not following it.
- 18/08/2010 01:21:13 AM
1356 Views
The argument is that it's "hallowed ground" and therefore should be treated with "respect"
- 18/08/2010 01:26:44 AM
1525 Views
Pretty much what Greg said.
- 18/08/2010 09:39:33 AM
1432 Views
then you are missing the point
- 18/08/2010 04:02:49 PM
1574 Views
In all fairness...
- 18/08/2010 09:46:26 PM
1467 Views
these guys are not babes in the woods
- 19/08/2010 12:28:24 PM
1317 Views
This whole debate disgusts me.
- 17/08/2010 05:24:56 PM
1633 Views
Jon Stewart made good point last night
- 17/08/2010 05:34:19 PM
1497 Views
but it's the CONCEPT!!! practical effect is not the POINT of political debate!! *NM*
- 17/08/2010 05:53:30 PM
696 Views
which is why Obama was crazy to get anywhere this issue
- 17/08/2010 06:01:44 PM
1372 Views
He's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't
- 17/08/2010 06:18:16 PM
1374 Views
More than anything, I see this being a sensitivity issue....
- 17/08/2010 07:43:45 PM
1416 Views
- 17/08/2010 07:52:07 PM
1428 Views
- 17/08/2010 07:52:07 PM
1428 Views
Right on.
- 17/08/2010 08:09:44 PM
1368 Views
yah, it sounds like the builders aren't being very thoughtful in their PR.
- 17/08/2010 08:12:20 PM
1164 Views
yah, it sounds like the builders aren't being very thoughtful in their PR.
- 17/08/2010 08:12:21 PM
1454 Views
The crux is they can't HELP stirring "up the grief and pain of the past. "
- 18/08/2010 01:49:21 PM
1503 Views
are you serious?
- 17/08/2010 08:01:01 PM
1520 Views
Yes, I am...
- 17/08/2010 08:14:27 PM
1413 Views
The point is your analogy does not hold
- 17/08/2010 08:19:29 PM
1405 Views
Plus
- 17/08/2010 08:26:36 PM
1478 Views
Re: Yes, I am...
- 17/08/2010 08:42:27 PM
1491 Views
Aren't they?
- 17/08/2010 09:19:58 PM
1489 Views
You may be interested in...
- 17/08/2010 09:23:48 PM
1588 Views
*nods* So I was right....
- 17/08/2010 09:26:59 PM
1284 Views
That is probably not fair
- 17/08/2010 11:12:22 PM
1386 Views
I know!
- 18/08/2010 03:06:25 AM
1402 Views
Using a touch of hyperbole, perhaps?
- 18/08/2010 10:18:36 AM
1454 Views
I'm so proud of you for noticing!
- 18/08/2010 10:48:14 AM
1520 Views
- 18/08/2010 10:48:14 AM
1520 Views
Just making sure you knew I wasn't mistaking your reply for a constructive one
- 18/08/2010 12:08:41 PM
1378 Views
- 18/08/2010 12:08:41 PM
1378 Views
I give constuctive replies where they are due
- 18/08/2010 12:30:42 PM
1461 Views
COMPLETELY unrelated point that I don't blame you for ignoring...
- 19/08/2010 04:25:31 AM
1358 Views
you are right of course
- 17/08/2010 08:22:23 PM
1393 Views
So, you're saying muslims should leave nyc to show their sensitivity, right?
- 17/08/2010 10:31:55 PM
1364 Views
so your saying you always speak in over the top rhetoric?
- 18/08/2010 03:22:20 PM
1253 Views
THANK YOU
- 18/08/2010 01:13:16 AM
1493 Views
Take deep breaths..
- 18/08/2010 05:25:16 AM
1429 Views
Typing a post didn't really require all that much effort
- 18/08/2010 06:13:15 AM
1481 Views
There are more important things in the world to worry about
- 18/08/2010 08:51:35 AM
1482 Views
I disagree, anger doesn't help in this debate, and it's only going to make things worse.
- 18/08/2010 10:56:30 AM
1452 Views
So what, the Americans supporting this mosque are "arrogant European pricks"?
- 18/08/2010 10:12:51 AM
1288 Views
Kind of a stretch for you to make that assumption
- 18/08/2010 11:31:16 AM
1485 Views
- 18/08/2010 11:31:16 AM
1485 Views
I hadn't read that other exchange yet, it made more sense after that.
- 18/08/2010 12:35:18 PM
1525 Views
My only real objection is the same old one over whether respect is an entitlement.
- 18/08/2010 02:21:19 PM
1329 Views
A mosque was built in the Pentagon months after 9/11
- 18/08/2010 01:23:11 AM
1467 Views
Here comes the "xenophobia card."
- 18/08/2010 01:27:50 AM
1523 Views
Which is why there was a bombing at another mosque earlier this year
- 18/08/2010 01:31:51 AM
1409 Views
I think a better parallel would be the new neighbors opening a pool store.
- 18/08/2010 01:40:42 PM
1502 Views
A guy on CNN made a really good point about this
- 17/08/2010 08:46:54 PM
1531 Views
That analogy really isn't better than Jeo's, and I would think worse.
*NM*
- 17/08/2010 09:02:50 PM
718 Views
*NM*
- 17/08/2010 09:02:50 PM
718 Views
hmm yes but that black man hadn't killed his dog
- 17/08/2010 09:22:15 PM
1442 Views
Re: hmm yes but that black man hadn't killed his dog
- 17/08/2010 10:32:24 PM
1583 Views
Yeah this whole debate is pretty pointless to be completely honest
- 17/08/2010 10:28:13 PM
1466 Views
well we have been shot at from enough mosque to make it hard to tell at times
- 18/08/2010 08:25:58 PM
1456 Views
I think this whole debate has made American look bad.
- 17/08/2010 10:58:23 PM
1378 Views
So what?
- 18/08/2010 12:28:40 AM
1458 Views
Okay, so we're no longer the land of religous tolerance.
- 18/08/2010 04:09:24 AM
1642 Views
Were we ever?
- 18/08/2010 04:18:16 AM
1612 Views
I guess not.
- 18/08/2010 04:25:03 AM
1555 Views
Re: I guess not.
- 18/08/2010 05:56:49 AM
1427 Views
Re: I guess not.
- 18/08/2010 10:43:05 AM
1416 Views
How does this work, do you only look bad to a bunch of ass wipes, or does anyone who thinks you look
- 18/08/2010 09:38:28 AM
1367 Views
Olberman's Special Comment on this one hits the nail on the head
- 18/08/2010 01:29:45 AM
1522 Views
love that the Olberman video, but Jon Stewart did an awesome job too. *NM*
- 18/08/2010 01:32:59 AM
654 Views
Olbermann and Stewart are possibly the two best people alive *NM*
- 18/08/2010 02:39:48 AM
738 Views
they make the top of my list for people I wnat to catch an STD *NM*
- 18/08/2010 08:27:27 PM
668 Views
Let me just say...
- 18/08/2010 09:20:38 PM
1482 Views
Re: Let me just say...
- 18/08/2010 09:22:12 PM
1458 Views
I didn't watch that particular video, so maybe, yeah. *NM*
- 18/08/2010 10:11:22 PM
706 Views
I used to be so Idealistic to think this was AMERICA.
- 18/08/2010 01:44:38 AM
1511 Views
the key phrase is "congress shall make no law...."
- 18/08/2010 02:23:53 AM
1543 Views
14th ammendment changed that *NM*
- 18/08/2010 04:51:08 AM
672 Views
14th ammendment established a state religion?
- 18/08/2010 08:14:11 AM
1336 Views
No, but the Equal Protection Clause extended much of the BoR to the states.
- 18/08/2010 02:50:31 PM
1465 Views
did you go the the Huffington Post school of law?
- 18/08/2010 03:29:14 PM
1398 Views
No, but I've spent more time around lawyers than I care to admit.
- 18/08/2010 03:45:36 PM
1490 Views
The connection is inevitable and, I think, deliberate.
- 18/08/2010 01:15:41 PM
1590 Views
Hmm
- 18/08/2010 02:26:17 PM
1351 Views
Bottom line is it may be in everyones interest to DISassociate Islam from 911.
- 18/08/2010 02:58:17 PM
1431 Views
No, bottom line is people need to be able to keep to thoughts in their brains at any given time *NM*
- 18/08/2010 03:31:03 PM
667 Views
You mean retain both "I want to promote Islam" AND "Dude, Ground Zero is right THERE! *points*"
- 18/08/2010 03:36:34 PM
1390 Views
How long ago were the Crusades?
- 18/08/2010 03:48:53 PM
1355 Views
Re: How long ago were the Crusades?
- 18/08/2010 03:52:23 PM
1393 Views
So wait...
- 18/08/2010 04:09:10 PM
1336 Views
Yes, Jerodam. Christians are good. All the rest are bad. I see it now.
- 18/08/2010 04:10:47 PM
1414 Views
Stop freaking out Camilla. You are such a drama queen some times.
- 18/08/2010 04:15:06 PM
1432 Views
That is not drama. That is fed up. *NM*
- 18/08/2010 04:16:32 PM
768 Views
You're not the only one who is fed up....
- 18/08/2010 04:24:27 PM
1248 Views
*giggle*
- 18/08/2010 04:29:03 PM
1429 Views
This may be nitpicking, but I'll do it anyway because it's a widespread misconception...
- 18/08/2010 04:30:20 PM
1380 Views
I agreed with you at first - thought your first post was pretty insightful.
- 18/08/2010 05:46:02 PM
1401 Views
The Crusades were by Christendom as a whole*, 9-11 isn't similar for Islam by some way
- 18/08/2010 04:04:54 PM
1398 Views
Re: The Crusades were by Christendom as a whole*, 9-11 isn't similar for Islam by some way
- 18/08/2010 04:11:34 PM
1409 Views
Some people will always wonder about such things; we're still accused of "Crusading" today.
- 18/08/2010 04:07:02 PM
1417 Views
I don't disagree about the outreach, as such, but a remark...
- 18/08/2010 04:37:52 PM
1288 Views
It's as much a local issue as the theme park Disney wanted to build at Gettysburg.
- 19/08/2010 03:15:03 PM
1323 Views
A bit more background information
- 18/08/2010 05:30:04 PM
1550 Views
That's informative, thanks, but I'm not sure it really changes anything.
- 19/08/2010 03:27:05 PM
1353 Views
Step One: Manufacture controversey by means of misinformation (i.e. Mosque at Ground Zero)
- 19/08/2010 06:40:49 PM
1536 Views
Can I just say...
- 19/08/2010 01:45:38 AM
1312 Views
Roughly 2 football fields, yes. And around a corner
- 19/08/2010 03:17:24 PM
1418 Views
Two hundred yards is nothing.
- 19/08/2010 04:44:34 PM
1352 Views
Sure it is - it's two large city blocks
- 19/08/2010 05:15:46 PM
1415 Views
It's two fairly average city blocks, and not even that some places.
- 21/08/2010 06:07:33 PM
1382 Views
Well you can not like it if you choose
- 25/08/2010 03:39:49 PM
1787 Views


*NM*
*NM*