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She focused on the First Amendments text, and ignored the rest as commentary. Joel Send a noteboard - 21/10/2010 04:49:22 PM
That's essentially what it is, despite courts nonetheless basing rulings on those mostly private (i.e. never publicly stated, and for a reason) statements. Jefferson argues in some of his other private correspondence about the Constitution in favor of both Nullification (the principle states can ignore locally unpopular federal laws within their borders) and Secession (actually, a LOT of the Founding Fathers made Constitutional arguments on the latter, usually starting with the colonies refusal to ratify the Constitution without a guarantee of secession rights). Funny how Jeffersons far more copious writing about those subjects don't have equal weight.
The Constitution still trumps, and separation of church and state goes well beyond the non-establishment clause. I don't think most people would support it in its purest form, because it would mean neither Mike Huckabee, an ordained Baptist minister, nor Mitt Romney, a Mormon congregational President, could hold elected office. That's the problem: Taken too far, separation of church and state in a self governing country infringes on the individuals religious freedom. It's a legitimate debate, but treating any number of federal rulings based on Jeffersons private correspondence as Constitutional law is presumptuous. Pretending not to even know about it and implying that ones opponent doesn't when she clearly does, all while expecting YOUR audience to be sufficiently ignorant to buy it, is insulting.

No. Really, and going back to basics, if you're just stumping on the words of it, and that his comment isn't specifically in there, then you've got something. Trying to say that there isn't anything in the first amendment that establishes a similar purpose is completely different. O'Donnell sneered at Coons when he pointed out the first few words of the real amendment, and was not clear that she was talking simply about the phrase. That's when everyone laughed, and I agree completely that it makes her look silly.

If "separation of church and state" doesn't really exist, how does it go well beyond the establishment clause? You've confused me there. Of course, given that I'm talking about years of legislation and all, I may need a link to something stating that if one is one active in a religious institution, one cannot also be active in the government. It seems to me that if the constitution trumps all, that would mean that congress cannot make a law forbidding a religious person to hold office. We have had priests in congress. But I would like to read from your angle, if you have something.

O'Donnell was right to sneer at the suggestion any of the words in the First Amendment enshrine separation of church and state in the Constitution. What we have in practice is a limited separation of church and state, which is pretty much what the explicit constitutional language requires, but we don't have anything like a pure or absolute separation or religious people, let along religious leaders, could not also be political leaders. To completely separate church and state in a self governing country would be to bar the religious from office (which is actually unconstitutional due to the section that bans religious tests for office holders). Once again, that's probably why the Constitution DOESN'T require separation of church and state, though it easily could have. Remember that the whole context of Jeffersons letter to the Baptists is how much government can dictate their religion, the very thing alarming O'Donnell and a lot of modern day Baptists when they see "separation of church and state" promoted as both an absolute and constitutional.
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"Where in the Constitution is separation of church and state?" - 20/10/2010 12:33:05 AM 963 Views
You don't want her? - 20/10/2010 01:21:20 AM 524 Views
I have decided for the first time in my life to not vote this year. - 20/10/2010 01:27:13 AM 384 Views
Now there's an answer - 20/10/2010 01:47:28 AM 489 Views
Voting isn't the only way to contribute *NM* - 20/10/2010 02:42:10 AM 165 Views
And most of those posts are a guess at best. - 20/10/2010 03:02:04 AM 363 Views
Maybe you shouldn't be guessing then? - 20/10/2010 06:00:02 AM 350 Views
Issac has a point. - 20/10/2010 02:14:28 AM 368 Views
Can you not spoil your ballot? - 20/10/2010 10:19:54 AM 348 Views
Depends where you live. - 20/10/2010 01:50:30 PM 435 Views
I don't think so but an intentional no vote is just as valid as voting IMHO. *NM* - 21/10/2010 02:45:35 AM 164 Views
The difference is when they look at statistics - 21/10/2010 10:49:48 AM 340 Views
Exactly. - 21/10/2010 02:02:46 PM 476 Views
When you don't vote the bad guys win. That simple. - 20/10/2010 01:53:23 PM 487 Views
An intentional NO vote is just as valid as voting. - 21/10/2010 02:46:58 AM 363 Views
Apart from the fact there's no record of it whatsoever, yes. - 21/10/2010 01:37:46 PM 348 Views
She is a buffoon of course. But what I am speechless about is... - 20/10/2010 01:25:43 AM 464 Views
Re: She is a buffoon of course. But what I am speechless about is... - 20/10/2010 01:35:48 AM 393 Views
Re: (meant to be under the main thread, but I can't move it) - 20/10/2010 02:42:23 AM 368 Views
It's a valid argument. - 21/10/2010 03:26:46 PM 339 Views
i feel kinda bad for her - 20/10/2010 03:31:03 AM 426 Views
What is odd about this is that everyone is used to the 'separation' idea that they don't bother to - 20/10/2010 06:44:48 AM 390 Views
Or, you know, the letters on the topic written by the people who drafted the Constitution *NM* - 20/10/2010 07:04:47 AM 212 Views
Those aren't the Constitution though. - 20/10/2010 12:39:41 PM 367 Views
which show they considered it but did not include it *NM* - 20/10/2010 06:14:37 PM 157 Views
Yep, this. *NM* - 20/10/2010 07:40:19 PM 192 Views
Personally, I think that's splitting hairs. *NM* - 20/10/2010 09:20:28 PM 165 Views
a direct reading is splitting hairs? - 20/10/2010 09:25:14 PM 350 Views
That's what lawyers like the Founding Fathers do. - 21/10/2010 02:56:36 PM 349 Views
I actually felt bad for her - 20/10/2010 10:46:57 AM 368 Views
She's right. - 20/10/2010 12:27:55 PM 487 Views
I'm less concerned about what she said than why she said it. *NM* - 20/10/2010 01:32:38 PM 257 Views
It is on youtube - 20/10/2010 02:40:12 PM 400 Views
Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 03:03:30 PM 411 Views
Re: Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 03:32:02 PM 356 Views
Re: Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 03:36:48 PM 331 Views
Re: Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 03:53:46 PM 341 Views
Re: Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 04:01:49 PM 423 Views
Re: Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 05:12:28 PM 335 Views
Because she knew her audience, she expected them to know better, not be deliberately obtuse. - 21/10/2010 02:31:19 PM 374 Views
Re: Because she knew her audience, she expected them to know better, not be deliberately obtuse. - 21/10/2010 02:40:23 PM 444 Views
If the subsequent rulings aren't Constitutional they don't matter. - 21/10/2010 03:03:11 PM 376 Views
Re: If the subsequent rulings aren't Constitutional they don't matter. - 21/10/2010 03:57:45 PM 431 Views
She focused on the First Amendments text, and ignored the rest as commentary. - 21/10/2010 04:49:22 PM 441 Views
Ok. - 21/10/2010 05:01:22 PM 337 Views
See Dreaded Anomaly's reply below. - 21/10/2010 03:03:02 PM 401 Views
Done. - 21/10/2010 04:50:52 PM 338 Views
Yet another reason you aren't a lawyer. *NM* - 21/10/2010 05:09:16 PM 127 Views
Because I don't accept arguments I consider unproven? - 21/10/2010 05:23:52 PM 391 Views
I see we have replaced the PDS with ODS - 20/10/2010 03:05:58 PM 339 Views
It only depends on just how finely one wants to split hairs. - 20/10/2010 04:02:28 PM 343 Views
no it depends how far you want to stretch the Constitution to say things it doesn't say - 20/10/2010 04:19:04 PM 341 Views
No it does not show that. - 21/10/2010 02:58:32 AM 335 Views
It doesn't matter what some of them may have wanted - 21/10/2010 02:54:54 PM 316 Views
Treaty of Tripoli through the Establishment clause fairly explicitly affirms this. Sorry. *NM* - 21/10/2010 03:56:09 AM 147 Views
OK which clause allows for amending the Constitution by treaty? I can't seem to find it *NM* - 21/10/2010 02:59:01 PM 136 Views
Supremacy clause, not establishment clause. My mistake. - 21/10/2010 05:07:18 PM 340 Views
Sorry, but the Treaty of Tripolis relevant section still seems like commentary. - 21/10/2010 05:18:00 PM 331 Views
This is quickly becoming infuriating. - 22/10/2010 01:41:18 AM 312 Views
No, it's part of the treaty. - 22/10/2010 02:02:42 AM 351 Views
no your mistake was misreading the clause - 21/10/2010 05:48:52 PM 325 Views
Very difficult not to lose my temper here. - 22/10/2010 01:39:21 AM 312 Views
Then you should argue it violate a treaty with a country that no longer exist - 22/10/2010 02:03:32 PM 323 Views
Noticed that, too, did you? - 22/10/2010 08:40:09 PM 444 Views
She's so... bewildered! - 20/10/2010 06:40:04 PM 333 Views
that is what I think when I read a lot of the responses here - 20/10/2010 07:44:40 PM 321 Views
Because the logical conclusion is obvious. - 21/10/2010 03:08:39 AM 323 Views
I think it is logical that it means what is say not want some want it to say - 21/10/2010 03:02:08 PM 325 Views
Nonsense. The nature of the nation was already changing in the first generation. - 22/10/2010 12:35:26 AM 433 Views
but it is an impulse that should be limited - 22/10/2010 06:05:10 PM 323 Views
For those who think O'Donnell is correct, even on a technicality: - 20/10/2010 10:49:40 PM 382 Views
exactly - 21/10/2010 03:26:00 AM 372 Views
She started out alright - 21/10/2010 02:32:01 PM 321 Views
or she wasn't really paying attnetion to him and was still trying to argue her first point - 21/10/2010 03:24:06 PM 481 Views
Lol. Bush-League. - 21/10/2010 04:39:43 PM 298 Views
at leas thten the haters were hating someone who mattered *NM* - 21/10/2010 05:50:03 PM 156 Views

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