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There are two points: Joel Send a noteboard - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
but so far the majority of your posts rely on something that to my knowledge has yet to be proven. It is as of now undetermined what, if any, affect Palin etc had on Loughner's choosing targets.

Am I correct in this assumption?

1) Because Giffords originated the suggestion that Palins use of crosshairs on her district endangered her, calling that suggestion "blood libel" accuses Giffords of it first and foremost, whether or not Palin intended that.

2) While it's unlikely that Loughner viewed that image (which is only relevant because Giffords mentioned it prior to an attack on her) it's at least as unlikely he was completely unaware of two solid years of paranoid hatefilled extremism directed at all liberals (and Giffords certainly qualifies) by all the far right demagogues, of which Palin is one.

That doesn't make Palin entirely or even largely responsible for what one nut with a gun decided to do, but to say all her inflammatory rhetoric, including but limited to the crosshairs, is wholly separate from his actions assumes he's been living under a rock for two years, only emerging occasionally for long enough to harass Gabrielle Giffords and ultimately gun down 19 people. The mere fact that he was on FB and MySpace makes it incredibly dubious he was unaware of all the militant extremist rhetoric from the far right, and anyone with his inclinations would've found encouragement there. Sarah Palin is only one of many far right demagogues, and the crosshairs imagery only one of many provocative, inflammatory and militant examples from her; regardless, Jared Loughner pulled the trigger (though had federal background checks required under the Brady Bill still existed his documented history of criminality and mental instability would've made that nigh impossible) and bears the lions share of the guilt, to say the least. HOWEVER, it's ludicrous to suggest the two solid years of incitement by demagogues didn't contribute, even though it's impossible to say how much. If you run around for years demanding unrestricted gun right and shouting, "death to n----rs!" you may not pull the trigger, but when a fellow gun nut and racist DOES you bare some of the blame. It would take a lot of cheek to accuse one of the people he shoots of libel for saying so.

Hope that helps.
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OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. Joel - 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM 2213 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"? Camilla - 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM 1094 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable. Joel - 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM 1257 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but... Legolas - 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM 1295 Views
That's why I said, "popularized". Joel - 16/01/2011 01:46:52 PM 1276 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already Isaac - 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM 1646 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread. Legolas - 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM 1172 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either Isaac - 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM 1194 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. Legolas - 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM 1179 Views
Re: I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. Isaac - 16/01/2011 11:30:38 PM 1080 Views
Oh please don't you start to random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM 1016 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before. Legolas - 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM 1213 Views
it was used here and nobody commented random thoughts - 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM 1112 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here Isaac - 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM 1140 Views
It's funny you should say that... Legolas - 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM 1182 Views
Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin). Joel - 19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM 1325 Views
I thought you were the real vicitim random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM 1281 Views
When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM 1000 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that... Isaac - 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM 1166 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry. Joel - 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM 1197 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal Isaac - 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM 1266 Views
I never said it was. Joel - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM 1353 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright. Legolas - 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM 1025 Views
but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means? random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM 1071 Views
I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely. Legolas - 19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM 1185 Views
compared to the way similar terms are used? random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:58:02 PM 1188 Views
I meant I hadn't seen it used in different contexts before. Legolas - 19/01/2011 07:35:00 PM 1144 Views
The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM 1053 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. Joel - 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM 1232 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. Isaac - 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM 1287 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her. Joel - 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM 1419 Views
That means precisely nothing Isaac - 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM 1115 Views
It means everything. Joel - 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM 1360 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic Chas - 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM 960 Views
There are two points: Joel - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM 1184 Views
I don't agree, but I understand. *NM* Chas - 19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM 547 Views
Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM 1163 Views
I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it. Joel - 20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM 1187 Views
Re: It means everything. Isaac - 19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM 995 Views
That's simply illogical. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM 1389 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM 1257 Views
Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM 1121 Views
I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM* random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM 543 Views
I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM 1141 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM 1204 Views
Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel. Joel - 18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM 1080 Views
yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM 1185 Views
I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM 1498 Views
It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM 1134 Views
I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM 1175 Views
so in other words you again missed the point random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM 1115 Views
Well, one of us did. Joel - 20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM 1241 Views
so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"? random thoughts - 20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM 873 Views
I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin? Joel - 20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM 1313 Views
So I am a little confused on something... MightyYT - 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM 1247 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this Joel - 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM 1383 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly... MightyYT - 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM 1116 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. Joel - 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM 1143 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. Isaac - 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM 1213 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically. Joel - 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM 1012 Views
No, they don't Isaac - 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM 1209 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one. Joel - 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM 1314 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said Isaac - 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM 1146 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice) Joel - 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM 1210 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity Isaac - 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM 1288 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice? Joel - 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM 1263 Views
really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM 1090 Views
I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM 1019 Views
way to dodge the point again random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM 1069 Views
Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one? Joel - 20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM 1135 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again* Isaac - 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM 1111 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it. Joel - 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM 1127 Views
There is no point Isaac - 21/01/2011 12:22:30 AM 1173 Views
If I had no point I wouldn't bother, but fair enough. Joel - 21/01/2011 01:20:32 AM 1418 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book. Dragonsoul - 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM 1443 Views
You're awesome at missing points, aren't you? Dannymac - 16/01/2011 07:26:30 PM 1182 Views
where is the accountability for those committing slander? random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:52:40 PM 1093 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither. Joel - 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM 1112 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM 1098 Views
That first line is says it all. Joel - 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM 1194 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist random thoughts - 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM 1296 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". Joel - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM 1194 Views
and that is supposed to mean something? random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:06:18 PM 1184 Views
YOU are cherry picking. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:50:21 PM 1132 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central... Shannow - 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 1410 Views
See my reply to Dragonsoul above. Dannymac - 16/01/2011 07:30:40 PM 1232 Views
Yeah, your first was better Isaac - 16/01/2011 09:48:58 PM 1071 Views
Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result. Joel - 16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM 1198 Views
And I call bullshit Cannoli - 18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM 1328 Views
If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face. Joel - 18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM 1284 Views
So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin? Shannow - 19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM 1174 Views
don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM* random thoughts - 19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM 566 Views
No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM 1268 Views
Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM* Elaine - 18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM 634 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed. Tom - 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM 1129 Views
Pretty much. Joel - 16/01/2011 11:44:35 PM 1189 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM* Tashmere - 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM 545 Views
I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know). Joel - 17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM 1140 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM* random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM 514 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM 1083 Views
OK Olberman when did I imply otherwise? *NM* random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:48:41 PM 556 Views
"Political offices are vandalized on a regular basis". Joel - 20/01/2011 03:16:39 AM 1268 Views
Took you this long, huh? Macharius - 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM 1013 Views
I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM 1361 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM 1049 Views
I'm just curious. callandor1000 - 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM 1012 Views
Re: I'm just curious. Camilla - 17/01/2011 03:28:04 PM 1172 Views
I always said I'd do that after Bush was re-elected. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:52:45 PM 1053 Views
like I said a matter of faith random thoughts - 17/01/2011 04:27:51 PM 1037 Views
I find it interesting... Jeordam - 17/01/2011 05:31:54 PM 1177 Views
I mention her looks solely because... callandor1000 - 20/01/2011 02:30:42 PM 1063 Views
Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM 1316 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ). Joel - 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM 1240 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity random thoughts - 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM 1091 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs? Joel - 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM 1108 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM 1053 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM 1152 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't random thoughts - 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM 948 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that. Joel - 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM 1047 Views
only in your does the connection exisit random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM 1083 Views
No. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM 1177 Views
dude wake up random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM 1291 Views
Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations. Joel - 20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM 1304 Views
So in your opinion... Jeordam - 17/01/2011 05:27:58 PM 1043 Views
How 'bout simply color coding them? Joel - 18/01/2011 11:21:03 PM 1088 Views
Why not just blame Giffords? Cannoli - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM 1391 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does. Joel - 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM 1213 Views
The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner random thoughts - 18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM 1167 Views
At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM 1239 Views
0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM 1030 Views
Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit Joel - 19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM 1068 Views
No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics' Isaac - 19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM 1022 Views
Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I? Joel - 20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM 1356 Views
no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM 1092 Views
It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM 1054 Views
it was the national democrats random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM 1182 Views
Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC. Joel - 20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM 1427 Views
The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue random thoughts - 19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM 1073 Views
"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM 1041 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me. Jacob - 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM 1218 Views
Exactly. *NM* Avendesora - 19/01/2011 04:51:40 PM 611 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox Isaac - 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM 966 Views
You missed the point, obviously. Jacob - 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM 1074 Views
so you are saying it is the same old RAFO random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:47:24 PM 1147 Views
The thread has admittedly degenerated Isaac - 19/01/2011 07:02:12 PM 988 Views
Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM* Jacob - 19/01/2011 07:04:58 PM 576 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM 1227 Views
Hey, now. I have to step in. Camilla - 20/01/2011 04:44:49 PM 1257 Views
I'm just saying a significant link can be demonstrated. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:07:27 PM 1314 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. dart_board - 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM 1248 Views
We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact Joel - 22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM 1228 Views
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