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That's simply illogical. Joel Send a noteboard - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM
Did Giffords say Palins use of crosshairs on her district could lead to something like this? Watch the tapes.


She can say what she wants, the facts prove that was not the case. Giffords doesn't get a halo or oracular ability from being attacked, ya know. If anything, what we see from this case is that lunatics often attack people for no sane reason, not the first time we've seen a major political figure injured by someone who's motives were simply inexplicable... almost like they lost the ability to engage in reason.

This is kinda the first big flaw in your argument, and you simply keep ignoring. Repeating that Giffords said she thought it could cause violence simply won't make the comment by her any more relevant. And yes, she was wrong in my opinion to make that statement as the rhetoric aimed at her by them did not exceed already common levels of rhetoric. It might not seem so to her, or to you, but you might want to take it on faith that the right doe snot view rhetoric from the left as particularly cheerful and civil. Or were you under the impression it is nice and polite to refer to an entire large ideology and its leaders in particular as violent stupid raving lunatics is 'civil'? And without 2) then yes, your whole case falls apart.

Both the specific argument and the more general one at the end; I'll address them in that order; since sequentially listing facts isn't getting through, let's try a syllogism: 1) Giffords' stated Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; 2) Palin calls such statements "blood libel": Therefore, 3) Palin accused Giffords of "blood libel". Giffords and Palin can both say what they want (though I believe the SCOTUS is very clear that right stops well short of inciting violence) but if, as you say, "the facts prove" Giffords wrong, then Palins charge against her of "blood libel" is true. Good luck getting any court outside the Cato Institute to agree "the facts prove" any such thing though. ;) And if "the facts prove" no such thing, Palins charge of "blood libel" is ITSELF libel, because she's publicly accusing someone of something they didn't do. Sarah's welcome to try it, but I suspect if it went to a civil trial to decide who libeled whom the jury would side with the woman who has a bullet hole through her head--especially since the subject of the trial would be whether she was right to feel threatened by Palins imagery.

As to cheerful civility, no law requires either in political rhetoric, though the latter is definitely desirable and sorely lacking on both sides. I've lost a lot of my own once scrupulous and well regarded civility the past couple years (gee, I can't imagine why, though it remains wrong). I've really TRIED to regain my compusure, but when one of the most liberal Congressmen in Barry Goldwaters home state is gunned down along with 18 others and the far rights reaction is "we had nothing to do with it and you liberals should stop persecuting us since he was one of YOU anyway!" it's quite a challenge. Every single thing that's ever gone wrong in world history is somehow the lefts fault if you ask the far right. Even Hitler was a leftist now in the minds of the US far right (but no one else, then or now), and that's somehow proof that a man who read Ayn Rand, Mein Kampf and Nietzsche (who Hitler, rightly or not, claimed as a major inspiration) before exercising his Second Amendment rights against perhaps the most liberal Congressman in his state (the same state that produced "extremism in defence of liberty is no vice" ) is somehow a flaming liberal because he also happens to have read the Communist Manifesto.

Can you see how some on the left MIGHT be slightly less than civil in the face of that? Six people are dead and thirteen others (including at least one conservative) wounded because someone tried to murder one of our own over her politics, and it's somehow our fault yet again because the far right demagogues and their supporters deny all accountability. I could shrug off the rhetoric after noting its inaccuracy, have in the past, but the woman who coined the term "death panels" wants to talk about libel while Gabrielle Giffords tries to learn how to speak again and a nine year old girl is buried. Nineteen people were SHOT and even though it's absurdly disingenuous to say the shooter (who had a MySpace account as well as one on Palins beloved FB) was wholly uninfluenced by far right demagogues those demagogues are insisting, as stridently and belligerently as ever, that they refuse to do anything differently, because there's NO possibility they contributed. I don't care so little about my country or its citizens that I'm willing to just "be the bigger man" and walk away this time, because if the inciteful rhetoric continues so will the killing, and I pity us all if you can't see that.

'Cos here's the thing, man: There are plenty of people on both sides who are confrontational and argumentative, always have been and always will be. That's shameful and regrettable, and I don't deny I've indulged in it to my cost in the past, though I'm making a conscious effort to do so no more. Where it crosses a line, however, is when we start portraying our opponents as traitors, terrorists, godless, and routinely use militant violent imagery to say they must be not simply resisted but actively destroyed at any cost. I don't give anyone a free pass there, avoid Kos in no small part for this very reason, but I did note your statement that they used bullseyes the same way Palin used crosshairs, and I believe it both because I consider you credible and them capable of that. That's every bit as wrong, but, far worse, it's every bit as DANGEROUS. Not in the sense of eroding freedom or jeopardizing democracy, though that's a real risk also, but in the sense of encouraging unstable and/or extreme political fanatics to match their violent rhetoric with actions.

I try to choose words very carefully, as much to avoid condoning as to avoid appearing sympathetic to violence. Just because I know what I mean doesn't mean every whackjob who reads my words does, but apparently Sarah Palin thinks it's more important to use crosshairs and talk about "Real America" than to avoid the risk of inciting violence; perhaps she's incapable of articulating her views without invoking a weapon, but that just implies all the fears about her are correct. You'll surely note I didn't mince words here, but I managed to be very clear and firm, as well as somewhat confrontational, while refraining from language that even MIGHT be taken to encourage or condone violence; I certainly wasn't forced to be terse. :P Anyone unwilling to even consider that risk, moderate THEMSELVES in the interest of not inciting murder, is no one to listen to on the subject of politics or anything else.
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This message last edited by Joel on 20/01/2011 at 01:14:25 AM
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OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM 2095 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"? - 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM 943 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable. - 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM 1124 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but... - 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM 1168 Views
That's why I said, "popularized". - 16/01/2011 01:46:52 PM 1113 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already - 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM 1480 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread. - 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM 1023 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either - 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM 1051 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM 1043 Views
Re: I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 11:30:38 PM 952 Views
Oh please don't you start to - 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM 895 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before. - 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM 1078 Views
it was used here and nobody commented - 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM 959 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here - 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM 1007 Views
It's funny you should say that... - 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM 1050 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that... - 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM 1029 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry. - 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM 1073 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal - 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM 1113 Views
I never said it was. - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM 1213 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright. - 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM 891 Views
compared to the way similar terms are used? - 19/01/2011 06:58:02 PM 1033 Views
I meant I hadn't seen it used in different contexts before. - 19/01/2011 07:35:00 PM 1012 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM 1096 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM 1131 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her. - 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM 1277 Views
That means precisely nothing - 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM 965 Views
It means everything. - 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM 1226 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic - 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM 832 Views
There are two points: - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM 1038 Views
Re: It means everything. - 19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM 863 Views
That's simply illogical. - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM 1248 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM 1119 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic - 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM 1067 Views
So I am a little confused on something... - 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM 1111 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this - 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM 1250 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly... - 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM 989 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM 1006 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM 1062 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically. - 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM 879 Views
No, they don't - 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM 1076 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one. - 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM 1158 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said - 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM 1012 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice) - 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM 1047 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity - 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM 1106 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice? - 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM 1129 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again* - 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM 975 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it. - 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM 990 Views
There is no point - 21/01/2011 12:22:30 AM 1023 Views
If I had no point I wouldn't bother, but fair enough. - 21/01/2011 01:20:32 AM 1272 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book. - 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM 1289 Views
You're awesome at missing points, aren't you? - 16/01/2011 07:26:30 PM 1031 Views
where is the accountability for those committing slander? - 17/01/2011 02:52:40 PM 956 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither. - 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM 983 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto - 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM 972 Views
That first line is says it all. - 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM 1052 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist - 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM 1162 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM 1046 Views
and that is supposed to mean something? - 20/01/2011 06:06:18 PM 1048 Views
YOU are cherry picking. - 20/01/2011 07:50:21 PM 985 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central... - 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 1265 Views
See my reply to Dragonsoul above. - 16/01/2011 07:30:40 PM 1096 Views
Yeah, your first was better - 16/01/2011 09:48:58 PM 912 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed. - 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM 994 Views
Pretty much. - 16/01/2011 11:44:35 PM 1056 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM* - 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM 485 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM* - 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM 454 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah. - 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM 942 Views
OK Olberman when did I imply otherwise? *NM* - 19/01/2011 02:48:41 PM 493 Views
"Political offices are vandalized on a regular basis". - 20/01/2011 03:16:39 AM 1134 Views
Took you this long, huh? - 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM 891 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy - 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM 921 Views
I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM 882 Views
Re: I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:28:04 PM 1029 Views
I always said I'd do that after Bush was re-elected. - 18/01/2011 11:52:45 PM 904 Views
like I said a matter of faith - 17/01/2011 04:27:51 PM 896 Views
I find it interesting... - 17/01/2011 05:31:54 PM 1046 Views
I mention her looks solely because... - 20/01/2011 02:30:42 PM 933 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ). - 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM 1104 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity - 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM 917 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs? - 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM 975 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you - 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM 906 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic. - 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM 1018 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't - 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM 818 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that. - 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM 906 Views
only in your does the connection exisit - 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM 948 Views
No. - 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM 1031 Views
dude wake up - 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM 1162 Views
So in your opinion... - 17/01/2011 05:27:58 PM 902 Views
How 'bout simply color coding them? - 18/01/2011 11:21:03 PM 946 Views
Why not just blame Giffords? - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM 1239 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does. - 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM 1076 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me. - 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM 1084 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 19/01/2011 04:51:40 PM 537 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox - 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM 827 Views
You missed the point, obviously. - 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM 935 Views
so you are saying it is the same old RAFO - 19/01/2011 06:47:24 PM 1007 Views
The thread has admittedly degenerated - 19/01/2011 07:02:12 PM 857 Views
Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM* - 19/01/2011 07:04:58 PM 520 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM 1088 Views
Hey, now. I have to step in. - 20/01/2011 04:44:49 PM 1115 Views
I'm just saying a significant link can be demonstrated. - 20/01/2011 07:07:27 PM 1162 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM 1101 Views

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