The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
Joel Send a noteboard - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
Since corporations are anathema to communism and nationalism nearly as much so (communism sees the the proletariat dictatorship and revolution, and the state as an obstacle, hence Marxs prediction and Lenins call for a global revolution) saying fascism, predicated on corporate power, is closer to the communism that abhors such power than to the capitalism that embraces it is (once again) factually inaccurate. Your statement reflects a partisan and deeply flawed understanding of political science. Since we're here, however, and everyone else wants to indulge my beloved tangents, I'll presume to instruct an elder:
I'm an ardent liberal and ABHOR communism. Lesson 1: Just because you're on the correct end of the political spectrum doesn't mean no one else on that end is reprehensible. In my early teens I believed Mao and Stalin (though not Lenin, he knew his poly sci) were simply evil men who made communism a vehicle for personal power without BELIEVING in it for a moment, but, fact is, it doesn't matter, because the absolutist nature of communism will produce the same totalitarian oppression and abuse even if begun by the most sincere and noble of leaders. From a pure poly sci perspective incremental socialism is eminently better because it avoids those excesses by allowing, nay, REQUIRING a robust capitalist element (we can call this Lesson 2 since core far right doctrine teaches that socialism abolishes private enterprise). From a purely historical perspective (which was the one on which Marx based the Communist Manifesto) incremental socialism has repeatedly proven Marx wrong because its incremental, democratic and PEACEFUL reforms have aborted any risk of the global communist revolution Marx said was inevitable. Hardcore communists really hate this, by the way, consider socialism little more than another "capitalist running dog" in the way of their glorious bloodbath.
Calling it "national socialism" was a Trojan Horse directed at German leftists and no one on the left or right, or either side of the Atlantic, bought it for a second. Hitler got elected by burning the Reichstag just so he could accuse the left of treason (SOUND FAMILIAR?
) When the right fought the left in the Spanish Civil War it was fascists vs. communists, not Republicans vs. fascists and communists (ironically, Francos party called themselves "Republicans" but that was mere coincidence; it doesn't taint the GOP except to the extent some GOP members then supported Franco politically and financially). Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Tojo hated the left--ALL of it--with a passion even you can't imagine.
But none of that's relevant here except insofar as how much the far rights agenda has distored it's grasp of political science and historical fact because Loughner is neither right nor left, he's just a violent paranoid nut with a record of criminal activity and mental instability who still got a gun because background checks before buying one are no longer mandatory.
If you want to call Giffords statement a political game, that's fine, but the FACTS are
1) She said Palins imagery endangered her,
She said that even though her own party used similar images. Seems like she was a typical liberal.
I can't speak for Ms. Giffords; leading liberals has been likened to herding cats for a reason. However, while I happen to believe such imagery less common on the left, whether or not that's true I do know it's out there and I have consistently disavowed it. I would hope Ms. Giffords does the same, but I don't speak for her and honestly can't say.
Since it had zero connection with Palin's imagery so far I would say she has not been proven correct.
At the very least it's connected in that Palin used an image involving a gun and Ms. Giffords mentioned it, then a gun was used in an attempt to kill her. That's two connections right there, even if coincidental; whether more exist is UNPROVEN EITHER WAY since Loughner refuses to say anything. However, as I've said repeatedly, the sheer volume of violent imagery and rhetoric coming from far right demagogues made it almost inevitable that some nut would shoot SOMEONE who'd mentioned an example of it, and that link would immediately be all over the airwaves. Hopefully there won't be more; more such events would hurt the demagogues politically, but the price is too high. There are more important things than winning elections. Really.
If Gifford comes out of the hospital room and makes the claim that Palin was at fault then I have no problem accusing her of slander. being shot does not make you saint. I have no problem criticizing the left wing nut job who got shot in the leg and then made death against a Tea Party member.
If I'm understanding that last sentence correctly, if someone got shot in the leg (in Tucson?) and then made a death threat against a Tea Party member I naturally condemn and repudiate that as well. If someone made a death threat against the person who shot them I'd still condemn, though understand, it if the shooter is in custody. If Ms. Giffords is in command of her faculties I'd be surprised if she doesn't have something to say when she recovers; it should be very interesting. Maybe Palin will remain adamant; after all, the Republicans lodged the charge of cowardly treason against a man who lost three limbs serving his country in Vietnam, and a life long civilian called another decorated Vietnam vet a coward on the floor of the US House, but both accusers remain in office, so GOP leaders seem capable of anything at this point.
I'm an ardent liberal and ABHOR communism. Lesson 1: Just because you're on the correct end of the political spectrum doesn't mean no one else on that end is reprehensible. In my early teens I believed Mao and Stalin (though not Lenin, he knew his poly sci) were simply evil men who made communism a vehicle for personal power without BELIEVING in it for a moment, but, fact is, it doesn't matter, because the absolutist nature of communism will produce the same totalitarian oppression and abuse even if begun by the most sincere and noble of leaders. From a pure poly sci perspective incremental socialism is eminently better because it avoids those excesses by allowing, nay, REQUIRING a robust capitalist element (we can call this Lesson 2 since core far right doctrine teaches that socialism abolishes private enterprise). From a purely historical perspective (which was the one on which Marx based the Communist Manifesto) incremental socialism has repeatedly proven Marx wrong because its incremental, democratic and PEACEFUL reforms have aborted any risk of the global communist revolution Marx said was inevitable. Hardcore communists really hate this, by the way, consider socialism little more than another "capitalist running dog" in the way of their glorious bloodbath.
Mein Kampf was written by a socialist.
The fact that Ms. Giffords played the typical liberal game of pumping up their base with the "they are crazy and they are after us" fear mongering really isn't relevant. She wasn't bothered by democrats using very similar imagery.
Being shot does make her an instant saint or prophet.
The fact that Ms. Giffords played the typical liberal game of pumping up their base with the "they are crazy and they are after us" fear mongering really isn't relevant. She wasn't bothered by democrats using very similar imagery.
Being shot does make her an instant saint or prophet.
Calling it "national socialism" was a Trojan Horse directed at German leftists and no one on the left or right, or either side of the Atlantic, bought it for a second. Hitler got elected by burning the Reichstag just so he could accuse the left of treason (SOUND FAMILIAR?
) When the right fought the left in the Spanish Civil War it was fascists vs. communists, not Republicans vs. fascists and communists (ironically, Francos party called themselves "Republicans" but that was mere coincidence; it doesn't taint the GOP except to the extent some GOP members then supported Franco politically and financially). Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Tojo hated the left--ALL of it--with a passion even you can't imagine.But none of that's relevant here except insofar as how much the far rights agenda has distored it's grasp of political science and historical fact because Loughner is neither right nor left, he's just a violent paranoid nut with a record of criminal activity and mental instability who still got a gun because background checks before buying one are no longer mandatory.
If you want to call Giffords statement a political game, that's fine, but the FACTS are
1) She said Palins imagery endangered her,
She said that even though her own party used similar images. Seems like she was a typical liberal.
I can't speak for Ms. Giffords; leading liberals has been likened to herding cats for a reason. However, while I happen to believe such imagery less common on the left, whether or not that's true I do know it's out there and I have consistently disavowed it. I would hope Ms. Giffords does the same, but I don't speak for her and honestly can't say.
2) She's been shot and
Since it had zero connection with Palin's imagery so far I would say she has not been proven correct.
At the very least it's connected in that Palin used an image involving a gun and Ms. Giffords mentioned it, then a gun was used in an attempt to kill her. That's two connections right there, even if coincidental; whether more exist is UNPROVEN EITHER WAY since Loughner refuses to say anything. However, as I've said repeatedly, the sheer volume of violent imagery and rhetoric coming from far right demagogues made it almost inevitable that some nut would shoot SOMEONE who'd mentioned an example of it, and that link would immediately be all over the airwaves. Hopefully there won't be more; more such events would hurt the demagogues politically, but the price is too high. There are more important things than winning elections. Really.
3) Palin says 2) makes 1) "blood libel".
If you want to accuse Giffords, go to her hospital room and do so--if you have that much guts and that little shame.
If you want to accuse Giffords, go to her hospital room and do so--if you have that much guts and that little shame.

If Gifford comes out of the hospital room and makes the claim that Palin was at fault then I have no problem accusing her of slander. being shot does not make you saint. I have no problem criticizing the left wing nut job who got shot in the leg and then made death against a Tea Party member.
If I'm understanding that last sentence correctly, if someone got shot in the leg (in Tucson?) and then made a death threat against a Tea Party member I naturally condemn and repudiate that as well. If someone made a death threat against the person who shot them I'd still condemn, though understand, it if the shooter is in custody. If Ms. Giffords is in command of her faculties I'd be surprised if she doesn't have something to say when she recovers; it should be very interesting. Maybe Palin will remain adamant; after all, the Republicans lodged the charge of cowardly treason against a man who lost three limbs serving his country in Vietnam, and a life long civilian called another decorated Vietnam vet a coward on the floor of the US House, but both accusers remain in office, so GOP leaders seem capable of anything at this point.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
- 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM
2230 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"?
- 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM
1111 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable.
- 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM
1272 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but...
- 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM
1310 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already
- 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM
1666 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread.
- 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM
1189 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either
- 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM
1209 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it.
- 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM
1196 Views
Oh please don't you start to
- 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM
1033 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before.
- 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM
1230 Views
it was used here and nobody commented
- 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM
1127 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here
- 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM
1156 Views
It's funny you should say that...
- 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM
1198 Views
Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin).
- 19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM
1341 Views
I thought you were the real vicitim
- 19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM
1296 Views
When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died.
- 19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM
1018 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that...
- 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM
1182 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry.
- 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM
1213 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright.
- 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM
1039 Views
but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means?
- 19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM
1083 Views
I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely.
- 19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM
1198 Views
The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either
- 17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM
1068 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
- 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM
1248 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
- 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM
1303 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her.
- 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM
1435 Views
That means precisely nothing
- 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM
1131 Views
It means everything.
- 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM
1373 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic
- 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM
977 Views
There are two points:
- 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
1197 Views
I don't agree, but I understand. *NM*
- 19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM
558 Views
Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable.
- 19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM
1179 Views
I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it.
- 20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM
1201 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
- 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
1269 Views
Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing.
- 20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM
1136 Views
I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM*
- 20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM
552 Views
I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way.
- 20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM
1155 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic
- 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM
1217 Views
Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel.
- 18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM
1095 Views
yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin
- 19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM
1201 Views
I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so.
- 20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM
1514 Views
It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing
- 20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM
1151 Views
I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin.
- 20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM
1196 Views
so in other words you again missed the point
- 20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM
1133 Views
Well, one of us did.
- 20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM
1256 Views
so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"?
- 20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM
888 Views
I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin?
- 20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM
1327 Views
So I am a little confused on something...
- 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM
1262 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this
- 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM
1401 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly...
- 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM
1128 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
- 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM
1159 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
- 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM
1229 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically.
- 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM
1028 Views
No, they don't
- 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM
1226 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one.
- 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM
1332 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said
- 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM
1162 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice)
- 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM
1226 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity
- 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM
1303 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice?
- 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM
1282 Views
really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens
- 20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM
1106 Views
I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing.
- 20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
1033 Views
- 20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
1033 Views
way to dodge the point again
- 20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM
1091 Views
Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one?
- 20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM
1149 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again*
- 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM
1127 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it.
- 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM
1144 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book.
- 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM
1455 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither.
- 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM
1127 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto
- 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM
1114 Views
That first line is says it all.
- 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM
1222 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist
- 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM
1309 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
- 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
1212 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central...
- 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM
1426 Views
Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result.
- 16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM
1211 Views
And I call bullshit
- 18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM
1344 Views
If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
- 18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
1301 Views
So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin?
- 19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM
1187 Views
don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM*
- 19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM
575 Views
No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do.
- 20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM
1282 Views
Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM*
- 18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM
646 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed.
- 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM
1146 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM*
- 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM
554 Views
I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know).
- 17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM
1157 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM*
- 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM
522 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah.
- 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
1098 Views
- 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
1098 Views
Took you this long, huh?
- 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM
1029 Views
I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick.
- 18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM
1379 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy
- 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM
1071 Views
I'm just curious.
- 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM
1027 Views
Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party.
- 18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM
1331 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ).
- 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM
1261 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity
- 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM
1108 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs?
- 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM
1120 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you
- 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM
1067 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic.
- 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM
1170 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't
- 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM
963 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that.
- 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM
1063 Views
only in your does the connection exisit
- 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM
1096 Views
No.
- 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM
1213 Views
dude wake up
- 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM
1302 Views
Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations.
- 20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
1320 Views
Why not just blame Giffords?
- 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
1410 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does.
- 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM
1225 Views
The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner
- 18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM
1184 Views
At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues.
- 18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM
1250 Views
0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right
- 19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM
1048 Views
Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit
- 19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
1086 Views
- 19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
1086 Views
No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics'
- 19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM
1034 Views
Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I?
- 20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM
1371 Views
no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state
- 20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM
1107 Views
It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric.
- 20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM
1068 Views
it was the national democrats
- 20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM
1203 Views
Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC.
- 20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM
1442 Views
The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue
- 19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM
1088 Views
"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense.
- 20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM
1059 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me.
- 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM
1232 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox
- 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM
981 Views
You missed the point, obviously.
- 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM
1087 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
- 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
1243 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
- 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM
1263 Views
We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact
- 22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM
1247 Views

Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM*