Also, for at least a week I consciously avoided digging into the details lest I find reason to believe Loughner more than a nut. Unfortunately it won't go away. We can't mourn the dead and address the ease with which one can legally get a gun despite a long and documented history of mental instability and criminal violence (the public suggestion that we SHOULDN'T do this is what prompted me to look deeper); instead we must focus on a former governors insistence that a comfy shoe doesn't fit. Rather than say, "Its absurd to suggest any connection" that suggestion is publicly called a malicious act. One op ed can be ignored; when a large political faction parrots it right down to the diction it must be addressed. If protesting libel charges means the shoe fits, protesting incitement charges does the same--which means it's not libel at all.
The right has, IMO, a legitimate grievance with left punditry and fringe blaming most every violent incident on them without proof. Rallying against that is utterly expected, totally legal, and IMO entirely ethical, your disagreement on the latter point is not really relevant, anymore than mine when an oil spill or industrial accident brings out those who favor greater regulation. You are stepping very close in your comments to an apparent endorsement of 1st amendment restrictions, which is so bizarre coming from you, as normally that is an area we strongly agree on, that I can not contemplate your motives as less than biased or I am simply not understanding where you're going with this. Are you seriously suggesting Palin and others be charged with some crime? It genuinely sounds like you are but that seems so ludicrous from you that I must assume you are simply not explaining your position clearly, yet you seem to keep reiterating the point.
Now as for guns laws, you say established history, and I agree Loughner had an established history, yet we must keep two things in mind. First, nothing from a legal standpoint was done against him, we can hardly cry foul and demand more laws when the authority to prevent this already existed and was simply not exercised. Second, we must tread very carefully when we start talking about stripping someone's rights on grounds of insanity or incompetence utilizing the same rule of thumb we have when we say "Better ten guilty men go free than one innocent be imprisoned", because it is essentially the same thing, when you take away someone's rights, whatever those rights are, you have the burden of proof to show that it was demonstrably justified and necessary. And when you do that, you must look at each individual action, not as a group, and ask if those warranted the action you took. Oh, many minor infractions or warning signs can 'add up' but when we look at why he wasn't dealt with we have to see if any of his prior incidents actually warranted restrictions, because from a practical standpoint many really did not except in hindsight. For instance, drug usage. His details are sketchy still but the military does not routinely contact the authorities if an applicant comes up hot for marijuana, and for fairly obvious reasons. For one, the test is voluntary as joining is voluntary. Nor do they wish to scare applicants away for fear they will not only be rejected but incarcerated. Many young people, with the foolishness only youth explains, regularly show up with narcotics still in their system for their MEPS exam. Considering most of us view pot usage by young adults as trivial having thousands of would be soldiers arrested each year would not go over well. Further, were a draft re-enabled for any reason, and a requirement to report positive results enforced, it is almost impossible to imagine the number of people who would need arresting and it would also burden the military with lots of red tape and procedures for what is otherwise a relatively simple rejection process since no criminal charges are expected to be filed, same as many companies use.
Additionally, drug use is a very bad standard for denying someone anything from the Bill of Rights. We would not do it for any other right and do so for that one only because it represents a clear hazard. A patterned history of prolonged drug use seems a fair standard to remove that privilege, at least temporarily, but why on Earth would a man who got arrested for smoking pot or doing coke say five years ago and since had no run ins with the law be less viable for gun ownership and transport than anyone else? We can take this a step further, he brought a gun to class, but I don't recall hearing that any charges were filed for that, and a gun in a college classroom is not some automatic crime. Much like bringing a gun anywhere, there may be rules and restrictions in local law or for private property their own rules, but we can hardly take away someone's gun if no law was violated or if no one bothered to press charges if a law was violated. Is taking a gun on to private property without permission even a felony? That would vary from case to case and state to state, obviously hunters who enter someone else's back woods on accident are not routinely incarcerated. Nor is showing people a gun a crime, it can be, for the purpose of intimidation, but even that's slippery ground. A person with a carry and conceal permit is on pretty solid ground when they open their jacket to reveal a weapon, letting people know you have a gun is not a crime anywhere that I know of, threatening someone with it can be, as can having it. Regardless, if no criminal charges are filed it hardly permits one to take away that right. And if we get to some murky "Clearly established pattern of behavior" you then have to have rules and authority on what constitutes 'clearly established' and who gets to judge that. I'm not sure extreme new legislation which might prevent such things is warranted, considering how genuinely rare they are. It's not PC to say so but this country does not have a rash of killing sprees, we have millions of guns, millions of cranks, and 300+ million people, yet tragic as these things are, they are relatively uncommon on that scale. You are hugely more likely to be killed or injured in a car accident, and a license is not a constitutional right, why would we want laws more restrictive than those existing for drivers? Say 30 people die a year in spree killings, this is high, but represent only 1 in 10 million people, rounding up again to assume a 100 year lifespan, the average persons chance of ever being killed under such circumstance are a mere 1 in 100,000, 20 times smaller than your odds of being struck by lightning in your lifetime, and we boosted our numbers twice to get that figure. We don't need more panic legislation for something like this which can cause for greater harm.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
- 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM
2183 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"?
- 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM
1057 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable.
- 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM
1221 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but...
- 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM
1264 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already
- 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM
1607 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread.
- 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM
1136 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either
- 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM
1162 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it.
- 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM
1156 Views
Oh please don't you start to
- 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM
991 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before.
- 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM
1186 Views
it was used here and nobody commented
- 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM
1065 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here
- 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM
1102 Views
It's funny you should say that...
- 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM
1150 Views
Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin).
- 19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM
1293 Views
I thought you were the real vicitim
- 19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM
1233 Views
When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died.
- 19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM
965 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that...
- 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM
1139 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry.
- 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM
1175 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal
- 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM
1233 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright.
- 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM
995 Views
but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means?
- 19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM
1035 Views
I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely.
- 19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM
1155 Views
The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either
- 17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM
1019 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
- 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM
1197 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
- 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM
1246 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her.
- 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM
1387 Views
That means precisely nothing
- 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM
1084 Views
It means everything.
- 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM
1326 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic
- 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM
932 Views
There are two points:
- 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
1150 Views
I don't agree, but I understand. *NM*
- 19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM
536 Views
Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable.
- 19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM
1129 Views
I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it.
- 20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM
1154 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
- 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
1220 Views
Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing.
- 20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM
1084 Views
I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM*
- 20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM
531 Views
I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way.
- 20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM
1117 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic
- 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM
1173 Views
Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel.
- 18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM
1056 Views
yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin
- 19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM
1141 Views
I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so.
- 20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM
1459 Views
It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing
- 20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM
1104 Views
I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin.
- 20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM
1143 Views
so in other words you again missed the point
- 20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM
1074 Views
Well, one of us did.
- 20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM
1206 Views
so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"?
- 20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM
835 Views
I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin?
- 20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM
1279 Views
So I am a little confused on something...
- 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM
1213 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this
- 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM
1353 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly...
- 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM
1086 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
- 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM
1109 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
- 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM
1179 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically.
- 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM
981 Views
No, they don't
- 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM
1179 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one.
- 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM
1280 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said
- 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM
1114 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice)
- 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM
1174 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity
- 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM
1251 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice?
- 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM
1232 Views
really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens
- 20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM
1059 Views
I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing.
- 20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
993 Views
- 20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
993 Views
way to dodge the point again
- 20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM
1032 Views
Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one?
- 20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM
1096 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again*
- 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM
1078 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it.
- 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM
1093 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book.
- 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM
1393 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither.
- 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM
1077 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto
- 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM
1066 Views
That first line is says it all.
- 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM
1155 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist
- 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM
1258 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
- 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
1149 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central...
- 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM
1381 Views
Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result.
- 16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM
1170 Views
And I call bullshit
- 18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM
1296 Views
If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
- 18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
1253 Views
So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin?
- 19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM
1152 Views
don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM*
- 19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM
534 Views
No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do.
- 20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM
1238 Views
Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM*
- 18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM
618 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed.
- 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM
1096 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM*
- 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM
534 Views
I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know).
- 17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM
1105 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM*
- 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM
500 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah.
- 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
1052 Views
- 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
1052 Views
Took you this long, huh?
- 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM
988 Views
I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick.
- 18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM
1333 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy
- 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM
1021 Views
I'm just curious.
- 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM
985 Views
Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party.
- 18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM
1285 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ).
- 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM
1205 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity
- 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM
1053 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs?
- 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM
1079 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you
- 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM
1014 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic.
- 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM
1122 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't
- 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM
914 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that.
- 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM
1014 Views
only in your does the connection exisit
- 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM
1059 Views
No.
- 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM
1135 Views
dude wake up
- 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM
1258 Views
Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations.
- 20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
1273 Views
Why not just blame Giffords?
- 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
1360 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does.
- 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM
1180 Views
The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner
- 18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM
1132 Views
At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues.
- 18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM
1205 Views
0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right
- 19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM
998 Views
Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit
- 19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
1040 Views
- 19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
1040 Views
No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics'
- 19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM
987 Views
Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I?
- 20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM
1326 Views
no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state
- 20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM
1067 Views
It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric.
- 20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM
1027 Views
it was the national democrats
- 20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM
1130 Views
Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC.
- 20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM
1392 Views
The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue
- 19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM
1034 Views
"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense.
- 20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM
1007 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me.
- 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM
1180 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox
- 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM
923 Views
You missed the point, obviously.
- 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM
1036 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
- 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
1195 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
- 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM
1216 Views
We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact
- 22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM
1178 Views

Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM*