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Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations. Joel Send a noteboard - 20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
In paragraph without referring to the 60'a can you show any single connection between him and Palin?

Giffords 2010 statement about Palins imagery and Loughners 2011 shooting are a BIT more recent, yes, so consider it done. Just because it started then doesn't change the fact it hasn't stopped.

connect the dots. Show how those to events are in anyway connected.

I have. Repeatedly. Citing them only for you to ignore again would be pointless but if you need a review try my posts in thread prior to yesterday.
Can you in anyway show that he followed the politics beyond his own little conspiracy rants?

Can I show he followed it WITHOUT referencing him following it? That's literally impossible. Can you show Obama follows Dems beyond leading them?

No can you show anywhere he was following Palin? Can you show anything beyond you just knowing that would make someoen believe that anything Palin said had an impact on him or that he was even aware of what Palin said about her? His friends say he didn't follow politics so good luck.

Yes, I can show that and have--but not without referencing his many paranoid anti-government political rants that fit so well with the "Real America" and "Take a Stand" rhetoric. His friends, according to Wikipedia, say, "He did not watch TV, he disliked the news, he didn't listen to political radio, he didn't take sides, he wasn't on the Left, he wasn't on the Right" and would "well[ed] up at the sight of President George W. Bush, or in discussing what he considered to be the nefarious designs of government". That means he was unaligned and didn't get his news from TV or radio, but it also demonstrates he was generally aware, in a way distorted by the data sources he accepted and further warped by his own mind, of Americas political state (of which Palin is a large and undeniable part). No one so consumed by anti-government paranoia could help it. He was a nut and did something insane, but to pretend it all happened in a vacuum invites the risk of more nuts following his lead (but unless they specifically identified him as their inspiration it would be unconnected, right? :rolleyes: )
If you insist that despite any actual evidence to support you that the political atmosphere played a role in this can you provide any factual evidence that would suggest it was right wing rhetoric and not left wing rhetoric that drove him to this? Because despite all the left wing rhetoric to the contrary the left has zero high ground when it comes to rhetoric.

I see you skipped this one.

No, I didn't. I gave an inclusive response to both that paragraph and the following one, and my last line was "to top it all off, the now classic 'how dare you call him a conservative when he's obviously a liberal" as if there are so few conservative pols in AZ that liberal nuts there have to gun down fellow liberals'". Yet another thing that's clearly there but whose presence you hotly deny.
If someone kills Palin tomorrow do you think having some many liberals accuse her of inspiring murder will be to blame? Do you think that all of the unfounded attacks on her increase the likelihood that some nut job will try and kill her? If so please go chastise yourself for being a hate monger and inspiring violence.

I've been very careful to avoid violent imagery; I usually am, and for good reason, so, no, if someone commits an act of violence for which I've never even implied support I won't feel responsible. You're reaching, and it smells, rightly or not, of desperation. The connection with Palin herself was made in 2010, but you want evidence more recent than the '60s. I have to show Loughners political actions and interests without referencing any of them. And, to top it all off, the now classic "how dare you call him a conservative when he's obviously a liberal" as if there are so few conservative pols in AZ that liberal nuts there have to gun down fellow liberals.

Sorry but have in way made a connection between what Palin said in his actions. That really is the long and short of this debate. You have nothing to connect these to except your desire for them to be connected.

Oh, gee, did you accuse me of violent rhetoric I never used? You blood libeler, you! :rolleyes: I've shown the connection repeatedly; my OP does that.
If that's the best way you can defend the far rights inflammatory violent rhetoric you should CONSIDER the possibility it's indefensible.

I think the whole far right inflammatroy rhetoric argument is a stinky pile of crap that can't be defended and is only believed by the far left. SHow me something to make me believe the right is doing this even a tiny bit more then the left. Please don't come back with the worthless reply that you condem both sides unless you are willing stop calling it right wing rhetoric.

Who's doing it more is a matter of opinion; I happen to believe the right is doing it a LOT more, but neither of us can prove or disprove that and it doesn't matter because it's always dangerous and irresponsible regardless of the speakers political affiliation, if any. I'm not exonerating anyone and haven't tried. Now that I've seen firsthand examples of Dems doing it I have one more reason not to subscribe to that party, because if a conservative Congressman were attacked there'd be every bit as much of a firestorm directed at Dem incitement, with just as much justification. Sure, I'll say in a heartbeat that ALL violent hateful rhetoric is wrong and both Van Hollen AND Palin should immediately cease using it lest they get more people killed. Is that your argument?
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OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. Joel - 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM 2108 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"? Camilla - 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM 959 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable. Joel - 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM 1136 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but... Legolas - 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM 1181 Views
That's why I said, "popularized". Joel - 16/01/2011 01:46:52 PM 1128 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already Isaac - 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM 1495 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread. Legolas - 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM 1036 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either Isaac - 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM 1064 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. Legolas - 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM 1055 Views
Re: I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. Isaac - 16/01/2011 11:30:38 PM 961 Views
Oh please don't you start to random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM 912 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before. Legolas - 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM 1095 Views
it was used here and nobody commented random thoughts - 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM 974 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here Isaac - 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM 1020 Views
It's funny you should say that... Legolas - 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM 1062 Views
Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin). Joel - 19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM 1205 Views
I thought you were the real vicitim random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM 1140 Views
When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM 868 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that... Isaac - 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM 1042 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry. Joel - 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM 1085 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal Isaac - 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM 1128 Views
I never said it was. Joel - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM 1224 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright. Legolas - 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM 902 Views
but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means? random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM 945 Views
I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely. Legolas - 19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM 1062 Views
compared to the way similar terms are used? random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:58:02 PM 1046 Views
I meant I hadn't seen it used in different contexts before. Legolas - 19/01/2011 07:35:00 PM 1023 Views
The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM 926 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. Joel - 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM 1107 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. Isaac - 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM 1145 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her. Joel - 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM 1289 Views
That means precisely nothing Isaac - 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM 989 Views
It means everything. Joel - 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM 1236 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic Chas - 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM 844 Views
There are two points: Joel - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM 1051 Views
I don't agree, but I understand. *NM* Chas - 19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM 498 Views
Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM 1030 Views
I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it. Joel - 20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM 1058 Views
Re: It means everything. Isaac - 19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM 875 Views
That's simply illogical. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM 1260 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM 1134 Views
Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM 992 Views
I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM* random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM 490 Views
I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM 1025 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM 1081 Views
Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel. Joel - 18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM 972 Views
yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM 1047 Views
I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM 1354 Views
It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM 1004 Views
I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM 1050 Views
so in other words you again missed the point random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM 985 Views
Well, one of us did. Joel - 20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM 1116 Views
so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"? random thoughts - 20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM 735 Views
I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin? Joel - 20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM 1181 Views
So I am a little confused on something... MightyYT - 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM 1125 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this Joel - 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM 1262 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly... MightyYT - 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM 1000 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. Joel - 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM 1018 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. Isaac - 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM 1078 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically. Joel - 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM 891 Views
No, they don't Isaac - 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM 1091 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one. Joel - 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM 1168 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said Isaac - 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM 1026 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice) Joel - 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM 1058 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity Isaac - 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM 1126 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice? Joel - 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM 1140 Views
really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM 965 Views
I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM 901 Views
way to dodge the point again random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM 933 Views
Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one? Joel - 20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM 1005 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again* Isaac - 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM 986 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it. Joel - 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM 1007 Views
There is no point Isaac - 21/01/2011 12:22:30 AM 1035 Views
If I had no point I wouldn't bother, but fair enough. Joel - 21/01/2011 01:20:32 AM 1286 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book. Dragonsoul - 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM 1305 Views
You're awesome at missing points, aren't you? Dannymac - 16/01/2011 07:26:30 PM 1043 Views
where is the accountability for those committing slander? random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:52:40 PM 971 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither. Joel - 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM 991 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM 985 Views
That first line is says it all. Joel - 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM 1069 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist random thoughts - 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM 1175 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". Joel - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM 1060 Views
and that is supposed to mean something? random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:06:18 PM 1061 Views
YOU are cherry picking. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:50:21 PM 999 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central... Shannow - 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 1282 Views
See my reply to Dragonsoul above. Dannymac - 16/01/2011 07:30:40 PM 1111 Views
Yeah, your first was better Isaac - 16/01/2011 09:48:58 PM 925 Views
Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result. Joel - 16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM 1073 Views
And I call bullshit Cannoli - 18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM 1209 Views
If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face. Joel - 18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM 1166 Views
So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin? Shannow - 19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM 1055 Views
don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM* random thoughts - 19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM 493 Views
No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM 1145 Views
Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM* Elaine - 18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM 578 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed. Tom - 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM 1008 Views
Pretty much. Joel - 16/01/2011 11:44:35 PM 1067 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM* Tashmere - 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM 490 Views
I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know). Joel - 17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM 1008 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM* random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM 459 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM 955 Views
OK Olberman when did I imply otherwise? *NM* random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:48:41 PM 500 Views
"Political offices are vandalized on a regular basis". Joel - 20/01/2011 03:16:39 AM 1146 Views
Took you this long, huh? Macharius - 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM 901 Views
I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM 1236 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM 931 Views
I'm just curious. callandor1000 - 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM 893 Views
Re: I'm just curious. Camilla - 17/01/2011 03:28:04 PM 1044 Views
I always said I'd do that after Bush was re-elected. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:52:45 PM 917 Views
like I said a matter of faith random thoughts - 17/01/2011 04:27:51 PM 908 Views
I find it interesting... Jeordam - 17/01/2011 05:31:54 PM 1061 Views
I mention her looks solely because... callandor1000 - 20/01/2011 02:30:42 PM 944 Views
Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM 1190 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ). Joel - 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM 1115 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity random thoughts - 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM 932 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs? Joel - 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM 986 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM 919 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM 1035 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't random thoughts - 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM 828 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that. Joel - 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM 919 Views
only in your does the connection exisit random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM 968 Views
No. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM 1040 Views
dude wake up random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM 1173 Views
Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations. Joel - 20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM 1168 Views
So in your opinion... Jeordam - 17/01/2011 05:27:58 PM 914 Views
How 'bout simply color coding them? Joel - 18/01/2011 11:21:03 PM 959 Views
Why not just blame Giffords? Cannoli - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM 1252 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does. Joel - 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM 1087 Views
The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner random thoughts - 18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM 1032 Views
At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM 1126 Views
0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM 909 Views
Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit Joel - 19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM 945 Views
No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics' Isaac - 19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM 896 Views
Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I? Joel - 20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM 1231 Views
no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM 973 Views
It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM 936 Views
it was the national democrats random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM 1034 Views
Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC. Joel - 20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM 1300 Views
The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue random thoughts - 19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM 944 Views
"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM 920 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me. Jacob - 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM 1099 Views
Exactly. *NM* Avendesora - 19/01/2011 04:51:40 PM 543 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox Isaac - 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM 837 Views
You missed the point, obviously. Jacob - 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM 947 Views
so you are saying it is the same old RAFO random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:47:24 PM 1022 Views
The thread has admittedly degenerated Isaac - 19/01/2011 07:02:12 PM 865 Views
Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM* Jacob - 19/01/2011 07:04:58 PM 524 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM 1101 Views
Hey, now. I have to step in. Camilla - 20/01/2011 04:44:49 PM 1130 Views
I'm just saying a significant link can be demonstrated. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:07:27 PM 1174 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. dart_board - 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM 1115 Views
We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact Joel - 22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM 1088 Views
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