I can't speak to Italian civil liberties under Mussolini, but the little I've heard contradicts you.
Joel Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 04:27:54 PM
Fascism allows for civil liberties, and in fact in Fascist Italy the average citizen had more liberties than one living in the United States (see treatment of Black Americans citizens).
So I'll let you discuss that with the people who spat on Mussolinis corpse when they hung up for public display after his death. I'd suggest telling everyone blackshirts murdered to stop telling lies, but since they're dead, you can't. I suppose the term "sicario del Duce" was just a figurative nickname for Amerigo Dumini, notwithstanding him ACTUALLY assassinating one of Mussolinis political enemies (for which he received an amnesty from il Duce himself). Facts, it is said, are stubborn things, and that Mussolinis fascists routinely committed violence against their fellow Italians (precisely the kind of violence you've repeatedly condemned from Breivik) is well established well documented fact. Of course, the standard rationalization was and remains that the victims deservered no better because they weren't "real Italians", either by reason of birth or because their "traitorous" (i.e. non-fascist) believes made them enemies of the state. That kind of thinking, well represented in your apparent view that Breiviks crime was not WHAT he did but to WHOM he did it, is one of several dangerous problems modern fascism creates. The moment you adopt that view anyone and everyone is just one rationalization away from the most heinous violence condoned or even committed by their own government and fellow citizens.
All fascism abolishes is elections at the highest level. In practice, Mussolini still held regional and municipal elections, thereby allowing the people to choose representatives for the issues that most commonly affected their lives.
Provided they didn't want to vote for anyone exiled as an enemy of the state, in which case they were likely to join their candidate.
Italy was not some sort of draconian dictatorship, under Mussolini the mafia was broken (and subsequently released upon the world by the Americans in '43), there weren't political executions, and the most his political enemies had to fear was comfortable exile in France, the U.S., or the U.K., welcome to return when they were ready to stop being critical of the government.
Is that how they "broke" the mafia? Just sent members out of the country until they were willing to comply with and parrot state propaganda? When you say, "comfortable" exile in another country, do you mean the government paid for their relocation and supported them in exile, or did they just leave one step ahead of the black shirts (if they were lucky) and fend for themselves in a foreign land however they could, hoping they didn't meet the same fate Trotsky did in Mexico? Regardless, any state that denies its citizens free expression under penalty of exile (if we accept your version of events that no one was subjected to state sanctioned, let alone initiated, violence) has ceased to serve the interests and welfare of those citizens, and abrogated the legitimacy of its own government. That's the traditional problem with fascism in Italy and everywhere else: Government ceases to be public service, because the public becomes the states servant rather than the reverse.
Mussolini's economic policies led Italy out of the Great Depression before most first world countries, his social policies led to the Lateran Pact with the Vatican ending nearly a century of internal conflict with the Church, and his government was the most effective Italy has had in the last 100 years.
Fascisms chief defense in the '30s was that it led a number of countries out of the Depression; those defences usually glossed over or ignored the fact fascism economic achievements came largely through imperialist military expansion, subjugation of conquered populations and ruthless suppression of dissenting groups (most notably labor, as in the case of the labor politician Italian fascists murdered in the early '20s). America had 25% unemployment in 1932, which would've been eliminated if 5% of the population were also eliminated and another 20% imprisoned; that would not, however, represent any economic improvement except on paper. Likewise, reconquering the ancient Roman empire and handing vast amounts of resources to Italian businesses for free would be great for those businesses, but whether the cost of the war machine represents a true benefit to the economy or just thousands of man hours wasted every time a tank explodes in an Ethiopian desert remains to be seen. Bottom line is that industry cranked up markedly to build the war machine, and was invigorated by both seized foreign resources and ruthless suppression of labor discontent, but any economy that sends people to prison or murders them outright for questioning its strength can't be very strong.
Anyhow, another point I'll make is this: I believe fascism to be uniquely Italian. It can't be replicated elsewhere without problems (see what happened when they attempted to be nationalistic in Germany). As such, I would never encourage other countries to be "fascist", as they could never properly adopt our revolution. So it's not like I'd divide the world into giant fascist states all fighting each other. It could never work anyway.
The conceit that fascisms problems were unique to Germany or foreign to Italy is just that: A conceit belied by copiously documented historical facts. Because fascism does not hold sway you have the liberty to ignore those facts if you like, but no amount of civil liberty will alter them or make fascism desirable or even viable.
But neither can the idea of perpetual peaceful co-existence. One state must always rise above the others, and that should be mine.
There will always be a natural international give and take, a pecking order dictated by geography and demographics. It's laudable and wise to want ones own nation to benefit from that as much as possible. However, when one nation seeks to prosper, not by improving itself, but by degrading its neighbors, honorable patriotism crosses the line to become disgusting nationalism. Perhaps the greatest core problem of fascism, in Italy, Germany, Spain and Japan, was and is that fascist nations seek to alter a natural balance of power less generous to them than they would like, by seizing what they do not possess from those who do possess it. Even if that were legitimate, it can't work because the greater power other nations already possess ensures their victory in the inevitable armed conflict. War may be diplomacy continued by other means, but in most cases a nation that can't achieve its goals diplomatically will have no better fortune martially, but suffer far more for the attempt. Their very motive makes victory impossible, and their aggressive acts make it inevitable that the stronger nations from which they seek to seize power will ultimately and successfully resist just as violently. Bank robbers don't win shootouts with the police because the police have more guns.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Large explosion in Oslo and nearby shootings
- 22/07/2011 03:52:56 PM
2009 Views
A bit too convenient for an accident, I'd say.
- 22/07/2011 03:54:38 PM
737 Views
I agree
- 22/07/2011 03:59:16 PM
737 Views
Why do you care about making a claim? You're not a reporter.
- 22/07/2011 04:53:06 PM
748 Views
Not good - two reported dead so far
- 22/07/2011 04:23:03 PM
727 Views
I thought everyone loved Norway!
- 22/07/2011 04:26:25 PM
712 Views
'cept Whales
- 22/07/2011 04:31:01 PM
723 Views
Hey, I wouldn't put something like this past Green Peace.
- 22/07/2011 04:37:40 PM
658 Views
- 22/07/2011 04:37:40 PM
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I would. *NM*
- 22/07/2011 06:52:38 PM
639 Views
Your faith is greater than mine then.
- 22/07/2011 10:26:54 PM
660 Views
Pics of the site look eerily similar to the Murrah building after the OKC bombing.
- 22/07/2011 04:27:03 PM
647 Views
NRK says a press conference is imminent; we'll hopefully know more soon.
- 22/07/2011 04:48:07 PM
717 Views
There are allegedly also people firing at the youth camp of the Labour party at an island
- 22/07/2011 05:26:29 PM
733 Views
7 confirmed dead, 2 severly injured, several with minor injuries.
- 22/07/2011 06:45:32 PM
695 Views
Despite all these jihadi groups claiming responsibility the police seem to think they are.
- 22/07/2011 09:37:08 PM
731 Views
It sounds a lot like that, yeah; the parallels with OKC are rather striking.
- 22/07/2011 10:25:42 PM
802 Views
I know a lot of people are going to be dissapointed if its not a Muslim
- 22/07/2011 10:58:12 PM
703 Views
Re: I know a lot of people are going to be dissapointed if its not a Muslim
- 22/07/2011 11:03:56 PM
761 Views
Norwegian papers article, in English:
- 22/07/2011 10:51:32 PM
840 Views
so "Youth camp" doesnt mean little kids right?
- 22/07/2011 11:05:42 PM
671 Views
“It seems kind of unreal, especially in Norway. This is not something that could happen here.”
- 23/07/2011 10:23:48 AM
687 Views
Yeah, but it is quite shocking in such a normally placid country.
- 23/07/2011 04:04:04 PM
758 Views
Holy crap
- 23/07/2011 11:06:32 AM
691 Views
Sounds like an anarchist, i.e., left-wing nut..... *NM*
- 23/07/2011 03:10:55 PM
625 Views
Which explains why he was a member of the far RIGHT party until he became too extreme for even them.
- 23/07/2011 03:55:54 PM
672 Views
Eerm, yeah...What Joel said
- 23/07/2011 04:40:21 PM
725 Views
There's very few facts for anyone to be working with
- 23/07/2011 05:52:26 PM
642 Views
Just having switched off the latest news...
- 23/07/2011 06:21:09 PM
638 Views
The picture may change as more becomes known, but you only said what the police have publicly said.
- 23/07/2011 07:24:02 PM
608 Views
The official facts we have are clear enough to validate Jens' statement.
- 23/07/2011 07:21:46 PM
521 Views
Why can't we just call him a wing-nut and agree?
- 23/07/2011 07:27:33 PM
772 Views
why cant we call him a terrorist?
- 23/07/2011 08:01:33 PM
665 Views
I'm fine with that; the media here's certainly calling him a terrorist.
- 23/07/2011 09:59:15 PM
627 Views
i noticed the Norwegians are calling it a terror attack
- 24/07/2011 03:17:53 AM
656 Views
In the Netherlands they're calling him a Christian fundamentalist. *NM*
- 24/07/2011 07:13:48 AM
642 Views
By the way - too bad Norway doesn't have the death penalty.....very justified in this case. *NM*
- 23/07/2011 08:44:32 PM
589 Views
Actually, it's more like "too bad the maximum Norwegian prison sentence is 21 years".
- 23/07/2011 09:33:52 PM
715 Views
Re: Actually, it's more like "too bad the maximum Norwegian prison sentence is 21 years".
- 23/07/2011 09:43:12 PM
764 Views
Anything less than execution is wrong.....
- 23/07/2011 09:52:07 PM
686 Views
By the Grace of God, that's not your call to make.
- 23/07/2011 10:06:05 PM
659 Views
92 murders = execution
- 23/07/2011 10:09:33 PM
684 Views
I brought up God because you're not Him.
- 23/07/2011 10:12:43 PM
673 Views
God doesn't decide anything in society, people do.....
- 23/07/2011 10:15:43 PM
629 Views
Yes, a huge portion of the world is OK with summary execution, but nowhere you or I want to live.
- 23/07/2011 10:34:28 PM
671 Views
Nowhere? - the majority of US citizens support the death penalty *NM*
- 23/07/2011 10:57:25 PM
616 Views
Not in any form as cut and dried as you presented.
- 23/07/2011 11:27:52 PM
673 Views
Yeah, supporting the concept isn't the same as supporting the application.....
- 24/07/2011 02:25:33 AM
638 Views
Doubt can never be completely eliminated from any equation, hence the standard's "reasonable" doubt.
- 24/07/2011 03:35:02 AM
655 Views
Yes it can, the two cases I mentioned have no doubt regarding guilt..... *NM*
- 24/07/2011 04:42:13 AM
589 Views
Again, believe what you like, just don't impose it on anyone else.
- 24/07/2011 12:02:01 PM
630 Views
I don't think that the Norwegian criminal system is based on that ideal.
- 24/07/2011 03:03:42 PM
584 Views
If Norwegians are fine with their 21 year law why should it bother you?
- 24/07/2011 03:24:56 AM
739 Views
For some reason it's his business.
- 24/07/2011 03:51:36 AM
733 Views
Makes sense
- 25/07/2011 01:36:13 AM
709 Views
Sacrificing freedom to protect it has never been logical, and is perhaps the most "un-American" act
- 25/07/2011 03:53:22 AM
586 Views
Sacrificing freedom to protect has never been logical, and is perhaps the most "un-American" of acts
- 25/07/2011 05:36:21 AM
601 Views
Re: Sacrificing freedom to protect has never been logical, and is perhaps the most "un-American"
- 25/07/2011 01:25:13 PM
642 Views
You need a reason for one, but if you nominally satisfy that minimal requirement they're available.
- 25/07/2011 05:28:23 PM
674 Views
they don't seem to have a problem voicing an opinion about our death penalty *NM*
- 26/07/2011 02:12:33 PM
738 Views
Right wing terrorism always confused me.
- 24/07/2011 04:44:34 AM
700 Views
I don't understand how anyone can be a fascist. *NM*
- 24/07/2011 07:15:16 AM
608 Views
I don't understand how any Italian can not be. *NM*
- 24/07/2011 01:51:34 PM
673 Views
Cause fascism didn't do much good for Italy? *NM*
- 24/07/2011 05:06:34 PM
600 Views
Bahaha yeah except 20 years of peace, prosperity and effective government.
- 25/07/2011 12:06:35 AM
640 Views
It's important to distinguish between Roman and modern fascism.
- 25/07/2011 03:48:24 AM
689 Views
The problem with that is simple.
- 25/07/2011 02:15:38 PM
598 Views
I can't speak to Italian civil liberties under Mussolini, but the little I've heard contradicts you.
- 25/07/2011 04:27:54 PM
621 Views
Wikipedia, really?
- 25/07/2011 05:07:28 PM
673 Views
Merely for convenience; the things I linked (e.g. blackshirt murder campaigns) are common knowledge.
- 25/07/2011 07:00:22 PM
584 Views
Actually, I know quite a bit about fascism in Italy
- 25/07/2011 08:29:04 AM
729 Views
If you did...
- 25/07/2011 02:05:31 PM
520 Views
You're full of it... and apparently you don't know it. *NM*
- 25/07/2011 06:40:14 PM
609 Views
Again, use facts...
- 26/07/2011 03:24:02 AM
702 Views
My guess is they're viewed as "collaborators".
- 24/07/2011 12:05:00 PM
656 Views
/ignoring the ridiculous fascism stuff... on the subject of killing your own
- 25/07/2011 04:36:01 PM
668 Views
Regardless.
- 25/07/2011 05:17:36 PM
637 Views
That's tempting, saying he isn't a "real" or "true" nationalist.
- 25/07/2011 09:20:38 PM
710 Views
Well I just don't comptrehend how he could be a "true" or "real" nationalist...
- 26/07/2011 03:25:35 AM
650 Views
That's clearly not true
- 26/07/2011 10:35:05 AM
607 Views
I'm pretty sure it's against nationalism as anyone defines it.
- 26/07/2011 01:43:56 PM
675 Views
See?
- 26/07/2011 02:05:09 PM
589 Views
Right, but...
- 26/07/2011 10:47:29 PM
680 Views
Yes he is on the far right
- 26/07/2011 10:54:06 PM
643 Views
- 26/07/2011 10:54:06 PM
643 Views
I'm hardly a fanatic.
- 27/07/2011 12:23:09 AM
508 Views
You do come across that way here.
- 27/07/2011 11:05:26 AM
638 Views
Maybe to you, then again if you want to talk about how people come across on the internet...
- 27/07/2011 10:05:39 PM
675 Views
That makes sense
- 27/07/2011 11:27:29 PM
622 Views
How would a Nazi killing ONLY aryans be a Nazi?
- 28/07/2011 06:27:03 AM
676 Views
Remember how the Nazis killled socialists and other people who disagreed with them? That is how. *NM*
- 28/07/2011 07:40:24 AM
584 Views
and don't forget it was how the far left killed the people they did like as well
- 28/07/2011 11:47:26 AM
614 Views
Sorry but when was the USSR nationalistic?
- 28/07/2011 12:40:46 PM
603 Views
The rather famous Night of the Long Knives not ring a bell?
- 28/07/2011 10:34:47 AM
591 Views
Again, I said a Nazi who kills ONLY aryans.
- 28/07/2011 06:03:00 PM
657 Views
So you know for a fact that every Nazi who killed a fellow Aryan nazi that night also killed others?
- 28/07/2011 08:01:35 PM
597 Views
I have no idea why I want to jump into this but I would just point out two things
- 28/07/2011 12:46:56 AM
655 Views
Unfortunately Anders was a product of this delusional age
- 24/07/2011 07:15:28 PM
830 Views
I suppose that was intended to be as cryptic as it sounds? *NM*
- 24/07/2011 09:43:49 PM
562 Views
Cryptic's accurate enough but some other descriptions come to mind *NM*
- 25/07/2011 06:58:42 PM
570 Views
Cryptic's accurate enough but some other descriptions come to mind *NM*
- 25/07/2011 06:58:42 PM
570 Views
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. In a dubious, halfhearted sort of way.
- 25/07/2011 09:21:55 PM
672 Views
Dear God, I hope they don't give him the platform to preach his crap
- 24/07/2011 10:07:37 PM
685 Views
it seems he has won, he has a fan on this website in fact, just look at the thread below yours
- 25/07/2011 05:33:39 AM
644 Views
Having read his manifesto and watched his youtube video...
- 25/07/2011 01:50:07 AM
624 Views
Oh, so killing people who are NOT HIS OWN would have been ok? *NM*
- 25/07/2011 10:38:50 AM
572 Views
Would have been understandable.
- 25/07/2011 02:03:31 PM
644 Views
Much as it pains me to say, most of his victims were almost certainly not Christian.
- 25/07/2011 07:04:21 PM
653 Views
I'm amazed that one person could cause this level of death.
- 25/07/2011 05:35:33 AM
644 Views
I too was surprised
- 25/07/2011 05:45:10 AM
615 Views
I'm told it takes most of an hour just to DRIVE from Oslo to Utøya.
- 25/07/2011 07:14:16 PM
625 Views
galveston wouldnt need police from houston, they have police on the island.
- 25/07/2011 09:22:40 PM
625 Views
If there were reports that someone was slaughter children?
- 25/07/2011 10:18:45 PM
633 Views
A local with a deer rifle vs. a man in combat armor with an automatic rifle and military training?
- 25/07/2011 10:36:54 PM
477 Views
yes local, who would have military training as well, could have taken him with a deer rifle
- 25/07/2011 11:17:08 PM
685 Views
Theoretically; bear in mind that Charles Whitman spent two full hours killing people in the UT tower
- 26/07/2011 12:54:51 AM
716 Views
More on response time; it could have been better, but was more like an hour than hour and a half.
- 26/07/2011 01:59:30 AM
680 Views
they still are working under the assumption that they had to use heavily armed special forces
- 26/07/2011 03:09:05 PM
595 Views
The level of planning is what made it possible, and what makes it so chilling.
- 25/07/2011 07:25:23 PM
611 Views
I really wish they would stop mentioning he was a fan of True Blood *NM*
- 25/07/2011 05:47:16 AM
564 Views
are political party sponsored youth camps common in Europe?
- 25/07/2011 07:13:00 PM
657 Views
It is the labour youth organisation's summer camp
- 25/07/2011 09:11:57 PM
639 Views
sorry but that just seems very odd to me
- 25/07/2011 10:08:07 PM
617 Views
I think most such organizations have a somewhat older membership - 16-25 or so.
- 25/07/2011 10:30:04 PM
617 Views
having children who are passed their teens I still considered teenagers kids
- 25/07/2011 10:57:50 PM
615 Views
- 25/07/2011 10:57:50 PM
615 Views
Re:I know that
- 27/07/2011 03:39:47 AM
674 Views
are we really so bored and entrenched that we are debating the motives of a mad man? *NM*
- 26/07/2011 02:13:38 PM
608 Views

*NM*
*NM*