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If the original trial is shown to be flawed that's supposed to require a new trial. Joel Send a noteboard - 22/09/2011 08:25:51 PM
That sounds awfully messed up. One part of the article that really caught my eye was the part where the Supreme Court said that Davis had failed to conclusively prove his innocence. Um. Isn't the entire justice system based on the idea that you are innocent until proven guilty? Shouldn't the prosecutors have to prove that he is guilty, instead of the other way around?

Yes, he was convicted by a jury, but given what was said there about witnesses changing their story, combined with the sketchy evidence ...

Executing a person under those circumstances is not all right.

I don't know if that's what the court actually required or if that is how the article's author phrased it, but it bugged me. He was proven guilty though, since he was convicted in the first place (whatever information has come out since the trial doesn't change that basic fact), so the presumption of innocence is already negated in his case. I still don't know how you "prove" somebody innocent though.


Other than proven innocent comment, is if all this evidence is so shaky, why didn't he win any of the appeals? That's where I'm confused...


It seems to me that there are 2 possible reasons:

1. He really is guilty.

2. The standard to overturn is set wrong or in a way that makes it anywhere from unlikely to impossible that it will happen. I mean I recognize that there has to be an initial assumption that the original trial was proper and we work forward from there (meaning the standard to overturn must necessarily be higher than the standard to convict in the first place). But in a case like this where it appears that the original trial was fundamentally flawed? Can that be proven? And if it is, does (or should) it negate the first trial?

As it obviously should. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, appellate courts are usually VERY reluctant to say that a previous trial was flawed, even in cases where most outside observers agree that it was obvoiusly and egregiously so. The case I usually cite is Rodney Reed:

There is no physical evidence tying him to the crime scene, and DNA evidence from the crime scene that rules him out does NOT rule out arresting officer Jimmy Fennell, whom the victim had coincidentally dumped and who, according to one witness, publicly argued with the victim two hours before her death. That is only one witness, of course, but is one more witness than can place Reed anywhere near the crime scene. That ought to be enough for reasonable doubt right there, and the prosecutions failure to inform the defence of the crime scene DNA evidence during discovery ought to be enough for a new trial--but an appellate court disagreed (after initially refusing to even hear the appeal because it was filed one day after the appeal deadline; prior to that another judge had upheld the ruling made by HER OWN MOTHER in Reeds original trial.) To top it all off, one of the arresting officer/ex-fiances police academy classmates testified that if he caught someone cheating on him he would strangle them to death with a belt to avoid leaving fingerprint evidence; the victim, his ex-fiance who was having sex with someone else, was, of course, strangled with a belt.

The obvious tragedy in executing innocent people is that they are wrongfully killed, but there is another often overlooked yet equally great threat to society: Executing an innocent person for a serious crime "solves" and closes the case--ending the search for a criminal who remains at large, unsuspected and dangerously violent. The actual killer could, for example, take a job with a different police force, respond to a domestic violence call, then kidnap and rape the woman present. Which, in Jimmy Fennells case, is not so hypothetical. When we execute an innocent man for a heinous crime, it means society remains at risk until the person responsible commits ANOTHER such crime and, hopefully, is at last caught and convicted of it.

The Austin Chronicle also reports that Reeds case was presented to a FEDERAL Appeals Court in January, to which I can only say, "thank God," because, as a federal appellate judge once stated IN HIS OFFICIAL RULING, "the only justice in the Texas Dept. of Criminal Justice is in the name." Odds are realistically still not good though because, once again, appellate courts are, for whatever reason, usually disinclined to say that their colleagues on a lower court screwed up so badly that it could cost an innocent man his life. It is rather perverse; the worse the error and the more serious its consequences, the more likely appeals coursts seem to protect their fellow judges rather than wrongfully convicted people.
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This message last edited by Joel on 22/09/2011 at 08:31:34 PM
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i'm proud to live in a country where you can be executed based on circumstantial evidence... - 22/09/2011 04:06:07 PM 1334 Views
Yeah it's pretty damn disgusting and frustrating... - 22/09/2011 04:08:05 PM 648 Views
Well - 22/09/2011 06:57:37 PM 688 Views
And yet the Supreme Court didn't stop it. You're a lawyer right? - 22/09/2011 04:19:05 PM 709 Views
Well, that right there was an ignorant thing to say. - 22/09/2011 04:32:49 PM 765 Views
But they get all the media attention - 22/09/2011 04:45:03 PM 659 Views
Er. - 22/09/2011 05:09:44 PM 660 Views
What about the t-shirts? *NM* - 22/09/2011 05:47:49 PM 269 Views
Heh... you should perhaps Google 'The West Memphis 3' - 22/09/2011 05:29:06 PM 732 Views
And this is a typically illogical argument. - 22/09/2011 11:11:48 PM 698 Views
You're kidding, right? - 23/09/2011 02:55:44 PM 643 Views
Re: You're kidding, right? - 23/09/2011 07:36:38 PM 662 Views
Juror bias. *NM* - 23/09/2011 08:35:10 PM 259 Views
the jury was majority black *NM* - 23/09/2011 09:03:48 PM 272 Views
In this instance, yes. *NM* - 23/09/2011 09:30:10 PM 229 Views
Your evidence for that? *NM* - 23/09/2011 11:33:58 PM 264 Views
Twenty-one years of life in the American South. - 24/09/2011 12:40:10 AM 619 Views
Of course I'm interested - 24/09/2011 04:03:51 AM 550 Views
From me being too involved with the subject material. I apologize. - 24/09/2011 11:16:06 AM 531 Views
No worries - 24/09/2011 07:10:40 PM 512 Views
While I largely agree with your argument, I agree more with Cannoli on the NAACP. - 23/09/2011 07:46:06 PM 596 Views
Wow - 23/09/2011 07:50:06 PM 510 Views
It happens. - 25/09/2011 03:09:00 PM 552 Views
yes the "you born white what more do you want" argument *NM* - 23/09/2011 09:03:04 PM 258 Views
From what I've read it is pretty disturbing - 22/09/2011 04:27:44 PM 737 Views
Huh. - 22/09/2011 04:47:20 PM 723 Views
That jumped out at me too. - 22/09/2011 04:50:52 PM 646 Views
What really confuses me - 22/09/2011 04:58:32 PM 611 Views
That's a good question and I really wish it would be addressed. - 22/09/2011 05:05:40 PM 679 Views
Re: That's a good question and I really wish it would be addressed. - 22/09/2011 05:21:59 PM 738 Views
If the original trial is shown to be flawed that's supposed to require a new trial. - 22/09/2011 08:25:51 PM 575 Views
Well... - 22/09/2011 05:18:54 PM 756 Views
So if I understand you correctly... - 22/09/2011 05:23:00 PM 695 Views
almost - 22/09/2011 08:25:06 PM 584 Views
Re: Well... - 22/09/2011 05:29:03 PM 659 Views
I know one reason is that - 22/09/2011 08:27:41 PM 651 Views
it is only confusing because the evidence isn't really that shaky - 22/09/2011 08:54:21 PM 621 Views
you are innocent until proven guilty - 22/09/2011 05:34:57 PM 666 Views
You must change your perspective..... - 22/09/2011 07:33:20 PM 650 Views
Well said *NM* - 22/09/2011 08:49:56 PM 287 Views
If I understand the Supreme Court correctly, the reason they denied the stay of execution was - 22/09/2011 08:25:14 PM 675 Views
On its face, that is a good reason. - 22/09/2011 10:07:44 PM 704 Views
I completely support the Death Penalty without question..... - 22/09/2011 08:27:54 PM 579 Views
Unreasonable doubt is impossible to eliminate. - 22/09/2011 09:54:43 PM 655 Views
Doubt can be eliminated.....any question about Dalmer? - 23/09/2011 01:00:52 PM 626 Views
Maybe he was framed by an enemy, government conspiracy or aliens. - 23/09/2011 01:54:21 PM 603 Views
Jigga what? *NM* - 23/09/2011 03:36:07 PM 291 Views
Circumstantial evidence is not, I believe, a bar to conviction. - 22/09/2011 09:43:56 PM 550 Views
Regarding the salvation thing, that is an argument FOR the death penalty, in my mind. - 22/09/2011 11:37:16 PM 624 Views
That motive is seflish and thus fatal. - 23/09/2011 01:17:00 AM 563 Views
Bullshit - 25/09/2011 03:53:05 AM 791 Views
Thank God you're not an evangelist. - 23/09/2011 02:59:06 PM 583 Views
And I pity the souls you have ministered to. They're in for a rude shock at their judgement - 25/09/2011 04:01:05 AM 614 Views
lol roman catholicism *NM* - 25/09/2011 04:39:55 AM 240 Views
You really don't understand irony, do you? Particularly as it applies to your post about this case. - 22/09/2011 11:26:49 PM 671 Views
. - 23/09/2011 08:21:38 AM 618 Views
I kind of agree. - 24/09/2011 12:05:27 AM 628 Views

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