Community Messageboard: That motive is seflish and thus fatal. by Joel

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That motive is seflish and thus fatal. Joel Send a noteboard - 23/09/2011 01:17:00 AM

I am also appalled by prematurely foreclosing the opportunity for repentance and salvation that I consider so priceless; I recognize that many people do not find that compelling, but would not want to answer for it personally. I hope GA got the right man, but God only knows; anyone else is only guessing.

As Johnson said, "...when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully..." The certainty of imminent death would then be a far better incentive for the condemned to get his act together and get himself right with God, and make his apologies. When there is any hope of freedom or putting off death, most will seize on that slim chance, rather than taking measures to prepare for the certainty of death. Once of the greatest graces a man can be granted is to know the time and date of his particular judgement years in advance. Better to have all the spiritual solace and opportunities for meditation and prayer afforded by the time spent on death row than the hubbub and violence of normal life in a prison for murderers.

Fear of Hell can excuse no one from it; only love from and for God can. I forget which Pithy Pet Phrase that is, but I stand by it. That remains my biggest problem with fire and brimstone theology: It encourages hollow "repentance" based on self preservation rather than reverence and devotion to God. As James said, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" Christianity is not a "get out of Hell free card," and treating it as such is horribly dangerous.

And on the practical side, since we're getting into non-legal/justice grounds, when there is no death penalty, and the ultimate penalty is never getting out of prison, what does a convict risk by repeated and violent escape attempts? What penalty can then deter a man who cannot legally be released, from improvising weapons and cutting a bloody path to freedom? Even if he fails, society can do nothing more to him beyond lock him up to try again and again. And finally, if a man cannot be deterred by the threat of death, only death can stop him. Those who argue that the death penalty does not deter criminals thus provide the ultimate practical argument for putting criminals to death.

It may surprise you to hear, but I accept those practical arguments, in principle; my solution would be to bring back things like Alcatraz and Devils Island. The Rock (and syphilis) broke Capone, and no successful escape has ever been confirmed; the only possible candidate is three guys who made it beyond the wall and, if they also made it through 20 miles of frigid shark infested water, were never seen or heard from again, despite being such incorrigible criminals that they wound up at Alcatraz. Send the most violent repeat offenders to some inescapable island to live by the jungle law for which they rejected the laws of God and man, periodically airlifting them food and water, if necessary. Many would still die, but their blood would be on each others hands, not yours or mine, and the potential to free wrongfully connected prisoners would remain in most cases (though restricting such sentences to the worst repeat offenders would reasonably ensure inmates were violent criminals even if their most RECENT conviction were erroneous.)

What such a practice would not do is continue the execution of people later discovered to be innocent with no recourse to correcting that injustice. I fail to see why killing an innocent is so great an evil in an individual that it merits death but an inevitable acceptable VIRTUE in a state.

Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
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This message last edited by Joel on 23/09/2011 at 01:18:10 AM

Edit 1 by Joel on 23/09/2011 at 01:18:10 AM

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i'm proud to live in a country where you can be executed based on circumstantial evidence... moondog - 22/09/2011 04:06:07 PM 1334 Views

Yeah it's pretty damn disgusting and frustrating... ironclad - 22/09/2011 04:08:05 PM 647 Views

Well nossy - 22/09/2011 06:57:37 PM 687 Views

And yet the Supreme Court didn't stop it. You're a lawyer right? Dark Knight - 22/09/2011 04:19:05 PM 709 Views

Well, that right there was an ignorant thing to say. Dannymac - 22/09/2011 04:32:49 PM 765 Views

But they get all the media attention Dark Knight - 22/09/2011 04:45:03 PM 659 Views

Er. Nate - 22/09/2011 05:09:44 PM 660 Views

What about the t-shirts?

*NM* Dark Knight - 22/09/2011 05:47:49 PM 269 Views

Heh... you should perhaps Google 'The West Memphis 3' Jacob - 22/09/2011 05:29:06 PM 732 Views

Cameron Todd Willingham is white, and his story is a national one since Perry is running for Pres Roland00 - 23/09/2011 03:41:52 PM 546 Views

those numbers are less schocking when you consider that blacks commet a lot more murders *NM* random thoughts - 22/09/2011 05:43:51 PM 291 Views

And this is a typically illogical argument. Cannoli - 22/09/2011 11:11:48 PM 698 Views

You're kidding, right? Dannymac - 23/09/2011 02:55:44 PM 643 Views

Re: You're kidding, right? ßelals Girl - 23/09/2011 07:36:38 PM 662 Views

Juror bias. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/09/2011 08:35:10 PM 259 Views

the jury was majority black *NM* random thoughts - 23/09/2011 09:03:48 PM 272 Views

In this instance, yes. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/09/2011 09:30:10 PM 229 Views

Your evidence for that? *NM* ßelals Girl - 23/09/2011 11:33:58 PM 264 Views

Twenty-one years of life in the American South. Ghavrel - 24/09/2011 12:40:10 AM 619 Views

Of course I'm interested ßelals Girl - 24/09/2011 04:03:51 AM 550 Views

From me being too involved with the subject material. I apologize. Ghavrel - 24/09/2011 11:16:06 AM 531 Views

No worries

ßelals Girl - 24/09/2011 07:10:40 PM 512 Views

While I largely agree with your argument, I agree more with Cannoli on the NAACP. Joel - 23/09/2011 07:46:06 PM 596 Views

Wow ßelals Girl - 23/09/2011 07:50:06 PM 510 Views

It happens. Joel - 25/09/2011 03:09:00 PM 552 Views

yes the "you born white what more do you want" argument *NM* random thoughts - 23/09/2011 09:03:04 PM 258 Views

From what I've read it is pretty disturbing snoopcester - 22/09/2011 04:27:44 PM 737 Views

Huh. Nate - 22/09/2011 04:47:20 PM 723 Views

That jumped out at me too. Sareitha Sedai - 22/09/2011 04:50:52 PM 646 Views

What really confuses me Dark Knight - 22/09/2011 04:58:32 PM 611 Views

That's a good question and I really wish it would be addressed. Sareitha Sedai - 22/09/2011 05:05:40 PM 678 Views

Re: That's a good question and I really wish it would be addressed. Macharius - 22/09/2011 05:21:59 PM 738 Views

If the original trial is shown to be flawed that's supposed to require a new trial. Joel - 22/09/2011 08:25:51 PM 574 Views

Well... Jacob - 22/09/2011 05:18:54 PM 756 Views

So if I understand you correctly... LadyLorraine - 22/09/2011 05:23:00 PM 695 Views

Yes, that is correct. And proving witness coercion is likely to be difficult if not impossible. *NM* Macharius - 22/09/2011 05:30:37 PM 232 Views

almost random thoughts - 22/09/2011 08:25:06 PM 584 Views

Re: Well... Macharius - 22/09/2011 05:29:03 PM 659 Views

I know one reason is that MightyYT - 22/09/2011 08:27:41 PM 651 Views

it is only confusing because the evidence isn't really that shaky random thoughts - 22/09/2011 08:54:21 PM 621 Views

you are innocent until proven guilty random thoughts - 22/09/2011 05:34:57 PM 666 Views

You must change your perspective..... Jeordam - 22/09/2011 07:33:20 PM 650 Views

Well said *NM* Dark Knight - 22/09/2011 08:49:56 PM 287 Views

If I understand the Supreme Court correctly, the reason they denied the stay of execution was MightyYT - 22/09/2011 08:25:14 PM 674 Views

On its face, that is a good reason. Joel - 22/09/2011 10:07:44 PM 704 Views

I completely support the Death Penalty without question..... trzaska2000 - 22/09/2011 08:27:54 PM 579 Views

Unreasonable doubt is impossible to eliminate. Joel - 22/09/2011 09:54:43 PM 655 Views

Doubt can be eliminated.....any question about Dalmer? trzaska2000 - 23/09/2011 01:00:52 PM 625 Views

Maybe he was framed by an enemy, government conspiracy or aliens. Joel - 23/09/2011 01:54:21 PM 603 Views

Jigga what?

*NM* trzaska2000 - 23/09/2011 03:36:07 PM 291 Views

"I do not know if I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly or am now a butterfly..." Joel - 23/09/2011 06:50:34 PM 577 Views

Circumstantial evidence is not, I believe, a bar to conviction. Joel - 22/09/2011 09:43:56 PM 550 Views

Regarding the salvation thing, that is an argument FOR the death penalty, in my mind. Cannoli - 22/09/2011 11:37:16 PM 624 Views

That motive is seflish and thus fatal. Joel - 23/09/2011 01:17:00 AM 563 Views

Bullshit Cannoli - 25/09/2011 03:53:05 AM 791 Views

Where do YOU get the idea that imperfect contrition is good enough? Joel - 25/09/2011 02:29:18 PM 1062 Views

Thank God you're not an evangelist. Dannymac - 23/09/2011 02:59:06 PM 583 Views

And I pity the souls you have ministered to. They're in for a rude shock at their judgement Cannoli - 25/09/2011 04:01:05 AM 614 Views

lol roman catholicism *NM* Ghavrel - 25/09/2011 04:39:55 AM 240 Views

Not just Roman Catholics, y'know, everyone who thinks God was not BSing about judgement. Joel - 25/09/2011 09:47:12 PM 641 Views

lol hellfire and brimstone *NM* Ghavrel - 26/09/2011 12:12:28 AM 237 Views

I suppose in a consequences free world everything is a source of amusement. Joel - 26/09/2011 12:33:14 AM 777 Views

You really don't understand irony, do you? Particularly as it applies to your post about this case. Cannoli - 22/09/2011 11:26:49 PM 671 Views

. Two Wongs - 23/09/2011 08:21:38 AM 618 Views

A list of anecdotal wrongs does not prove anything. If convictions can be wrong, so can exonerations *NM* Cannoli - 25/09/2011 04:03:26 AM 242 Views

Yes; it's the uncertainties that count. Either way. Two Wongs - 25/09/2011 04:15:48 AM 444 Views

sorry if i don't have time to link to every

thing i've read on the subject moondog - 23/09/2011 02:54:50 PM 737 Views

Well I would think you would have picked an article that offers some iota of proof of his innocence. Cannoli - 25/09/2011 04:14:45 AM 665 Views

I kind of agree. Vivien - 24/09/2011 12:05:27 AM 628 Views

Well, I wouldn't call eyewitness accounts circumstancial evidence. Vivien - 23/09/2011 11:45:48 PM 604 Views

Eyewitness testimony is incredibly unreliable. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/09/2011 12:39:51 AM 237 Views

Nor would I, but I've heard that lawyers say, "an eye witness is the worst witness you can have." Joel - 25/09/2011 03:23:53 PM 638 Views

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<quote id="227264">
<quote id="227248"><quote> I am also appalled by prematurely foreclosing the opportunity for repentance and salvation that I consider so priceless; I recognize that many people do not find that compelling, but would not want to answer for it personally.  I hope GA got the right man, but God only knows; anyone else is only guessing.</quote>
As Johnson said, "...when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully..." The certainty of imminent death would then be a far better incentive for the condemned to get his act together and get himself right with God, and make his apologies.  When there is any hope of freedom or putting off death, most will seize on that slim chance, rather than taking measures to prepare for the certainty of death.  Once of the greatest graces a man can be granted is to know the time and date of his particular judgement years in advance.  Better to have all the spiritual solace and opportunities for meditation and prayer afforded by the time spent on death row than the hubbub and violence of normal life in a prison for murderers.</quote>
Fear of Hell can excuse no one from it; only love from and for God can.  I forget which Pithy Pet Phrase that is, but I stand by it.  That remains my biggest problem with fire and brimstone theology:  It encourages hollow "repentance" based on self preservation rather than reverence and devotion to God.  As James said,  "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!"  Christianity is not a "get out of Hell free card," and treating it as such is horribly dangerous.
<quote id="227248">And on the practical side, since we're getting into non-legal/justice grounds, when there is no death penalty, and the ultimate penalty is never getting out of prison, what does a convict risk by repeated and violent escape attempts? What penalty can then deter a man who cannot legally be released, from improvising weapons and cutting a bloody path to freedom?  Even if he fails, society can do nothing more to him beyond lock him up to try again and again.  And finally, if a man cannot be deterred by the threat of death, only death can stop him.  Those who argue that the death penalty does not deter criminals thus provide the ultimate practical argument for putting criminals to death. </quote>
It may surprise you to hear, but I accept those practical arguments, in principle; my solution would be to bring back things like Alcatraz and Devils Island.  The Rock (and syphilis) broke Capone, and no successful escape has ever been confirmed; the only possible candidate is three guys who made it beyond the wall and, if they also made it through 20 miles of frigid shark infested water, were never seen or heard from again, despite being such incorrigible criminals that they wound up at Alcatraz.  Send the most violent repeat offenders to some inescapable island to live by the jungle law for which they rejected the laws of God and man, periodically airlifting them food and water, if necessary.  Many would still die, but their blood would be on each others hands, not yours or mine, and the potential to free wrongfully connected prisoners would remain in most cases (though restricting such sentences to the worst repeat offenders would reasonably ensure inmates were violent criminals even if their most RECENT conviction were erroneous.)

What such a practice would not do is continue the execution of people later discovered to be innocent with no recourse to correcting that injustice.  I fail to see why killing an innocent is so great an evil in an individual that it merits death but an inevitable acceptable VIRTUE in a state.  
</quote>

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