That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway
Isaac Send a noteboard - 23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM
I do tend to hold to those two absolutes but I add a layer, so I'm open to adding another. My normal is:
1) Is a fetus a human? Modifier: at what point is this the case?
2) If human, is there a reasonable duration and degree of risk/burden to which a person - as the sole person able to do so - can be expected to endure to preserve another's life?
So your point, re: consequences, would I think factor in on #2. My issue is that #2 is essentially the 'burden' aspect. The continuing problem is that the burdens are mostly psychological - all too real - but still in the mind. A degree of harm sufficient to tip the scales is also, I'd think, almost by definition sufficient to rightly declare that person not of sound mind where the decision is being made. Where a significant physical risk is involved, we enter the realm of triage anyway, so only in the case of a relatively normal pregnancy does the psychological damage come into play.
Yet to utilize this argument someone must first acknowledge that a fetus is a human, or is very probably so, or it's an irrelevant point. At this, we now have a human life who will have their fate decided by a person who's justification is not without merit but is also the book definition of why we do not let individuals end others lives without a reasonable threat of imminent danger to themselves or others that isn't present here.
If #1 is "No" then the reason given for an abortion is irrelevant. If Yes then it's a human, and a case has to be made for ending their life. Placing that decision in the hands strictly of someone who's case is that the pregnancy itself is traumatic to them violates the very core of our legal and ethical system. We can certainly say, of someone who took personal steps to end the pregnancy, that there were mitigating circumstances, none would deny it is traumatic, but that same logic cuts counter to the idea that they can make the decision and others may follow it. I can kill someone in a rage or in a state of insanity, temporary or not, and receive a lower punishment then a premeditated act committed in a reasonable sound frame of mind. I can't kill someone who someone not of sound mind has dragged before me claiming is a murderer or rapist or what have you. Their emotional state doesn't excuse me doing it. So the case for a tangible difference would seem to boil down to the idea that we wouldn't prosecute a rape victim for premeditated murder trying to end - successfully or not - a pregnancy. Not because the abortion was just or okay, but because they might be deemed temporarily insane. But again, this whole line of reasoning seriously damages their standing as a legitimate decision maker and only functions in the context of an assumption of personhood anyway. Thus it pretty much eliminates them using a doctor for the process, as they certainly are under no obligation, nor legal or ethical protection, to end another's life at the behest of someone else who can't be said to have that person's best interests in mind and be particularly raitonal themselves... and if they are rational, then I have difficulty seeing the case for severe emotional trauma sufficient to justify the death as self-defense.
1) Is a fetus a human? Modifier: at what point is this the case?
2) If human, is there a reasonable duration and degree of risk/burden to which a person - as the sole person able to do so - can be expected to endure to preserve another's life?
So your point, re: consequences, would I think factor in on #2. My issue is that #2 is essentially the 'burden' aspect. The continuing problem is that the burdens are mostly psychological - all too real - but still in the mind. A degree of harm sufficient to tip the scales is also, I'd think, almost by definition sufficient to rightly declare that person not of sound mind where the decision is being made. Where a significant physical risk is involved, we enter the realm of triage anyway, so only in the case of a relatively normal pregnancy does the psychological damage come into play.
Yet to utilize this argument someone must first acknowledge that a fetus is a human, or is very probably so, or it's an irrelevant point. At this, we now have a human life who will have their fate decided by a person who's justification is not without merit but is also the book definition of why we do not let individuals end others lives without a reasonable threat of imminent danger to themselves or others that isn't present here.
If #1 is "No" then the reason given for an abortion is irrelevant. If Yes then it's a human, and a case has to be made for ending their life. Placing that decision in the hands strictly of someone who's case is that the pregnancy itself is traumatic to them violates the very core of our legal and ethical system. We can certainly say, of someone who took personal steps to end the pregnancy, that there were mitigating circumstances, none would deny it is traumatic, but that same logic cuts counter to the idea that they can make the decision and others may follow it. I can kill someone in a rage or in a state of insanity, temporary or not, and receive a lower punishment then a premeditated act committed in a reasonable sound frame of mind. I can't kill someone who someone not of sound mind has dragged before me claiming is a murderer or rapist or what have you. Their emotional state doesn't excuse me doing it. So the case for a tangible difference would seem to boil down to the idea that we wouldn't prosecute a rape victim for premeditated murder trying to end - successfully or not - a pregnancy. Not because the abortion was just or okay, but because they might be deemed temporarily insane. But again, this whole line of reasoning seriously damages their standing as a legitimate decision maker and only functions in the context of an assumption of personhood anyway. Thus it pretty much eliminates them using a doctor for the process, as they certainly are under no obligation, nor legal or ethical protection, to end another's life at the behest of someone else who can't be said to have that person's best interests in mind and be particularly raitonal themselves... and if they are rational, then I have difficulty seeing the case for severe emotional trauma sufficient to justify the death as self-defense.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off
22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM
- 1056 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest.
22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM
- 625 Views
That is second on my list of things I remember about him, probably down to third now.
22/08/2012 11:21:17 PM
- 546 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate
23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM
- 596 Views
Bullshit
23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM
- 502 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway
23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM
- 520 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic.
23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM
- 752 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments
24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM
- 452 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way.
24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM
- 522 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too
24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM
- 537 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led.
24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM
- 619 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary
24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM
- 571 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either.
24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM
- 732 Views
I'm not even sure what that means
25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM
- 463 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads.
25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM
- 526 Views
Okay, we're done here
26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM
- 495 Views
Quotes are not my opinion.
26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM
- 469 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education.
26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM
- 558 Views
Further post-secondary education, you mean; probably so, though not for the reasons you stated.
26/08/2012 08:20:45 PM
- 515 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually?
27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM
- 587 Views
It has nothing to do with consequences or responsibility. It's about life & privacy. Period
23/08/2012 12:04:55 PM
- 621 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments.
23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM
- 579 Views
Really? *NM*
23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM
- 329 Views
Yeah.
23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM
- 527 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response.
23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM
- 521 Views
Heh, I didn't think so.
23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM
- 564 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context.
23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM
- 655 Views
Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM
- 475 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM
- 502 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM
- 479 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries.
23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM
- 503 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air
23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM
- 547 Views
This
23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM
- 550 Views
Eh
23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM
- 494 Views
I read it the same way Jen did
23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM
- 461 Views
Why?
23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM
- 540 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it.
23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM
- 528 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely.
23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM
- 504 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule.
23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM
- 514 Views
Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM
- 488 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM
- 454 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM
- 458 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM
- 559 Views
couple things
24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM
- 466 Views
Re: couple things
24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM
- 500 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange.
24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM
- 473 Views
I can
23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM
- 435 Views
OK
23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM
- 477 Views
Bullshit.
23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM
- 447 Views
Re: Bullshit.
23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
- 639 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets
23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM
- 556 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit
23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM
- 476 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned
24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM
- 474 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well.
24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM
- 527 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate.
24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM
- 675 Views
Interesting.
24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM
- 465 Views
Yeah, that about covers it; personally, I am developing a grudging respect for Akin.
24/08/2012 06:30:43 AM
- 521 Views
no it isn't kinda true
24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM
- 445 Views
The MO GOP voters who nominated him for being "most conservative" think it is.
25/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
- 479 Views