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That is a dangerous line of logic. Joel Send a noteboard - 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM
I do tend to hold to those two absolutes but I add a layer, so I'm open to adding another. My normal is:

1) Is a fetus a human? Modifier: at what point is this the case?
2) If human, is there a reasonable duration and degree of risk/burden to which a person - as the sole person able to do so - can be expected to endure to preserve another's life?

So your point, re: consequences, would I think factor in on #2. My issue is that #2 is essentially the 'burden' aspect. The continuing problem is that the burdens are mostly psychological - all too real - but still in the mind. A degree of harm sufficient to tip the scales is also, I'd think, almost by definition sufficient to rightly declare that person not of sound mind where the decision is being made. Where a significant physical risk is involved, we enter the realm of triage anyway, so only in the case of a relatively normal pregnancy does the psychological damage come into play.

Yet to utilize this argument someone must first acknowledge that a fetus is a human, or is very probably so, or it's an irrelevant point. At this, we now have a human life who will have their fate decided by a person who's justification is not without merit but is also the book definition of why we do not let individuals end others lives without a reasonable threat of imminent danger to themselves or others that isn't present here.
Not just that pregnant women who want abortions are legally incompetent by definition (though I would not say that too loudly either,) but that

If #1 is "No" then the reason given for an abortion is irrelevant. If Yes then it's a human, and a case has to be made for ending their life. Placing that decision in the hands strictly of someone who's case is that the pregnancy itself is traumatic to them violates the very core of our legal and ethical system. We can certainly say, of someone who took personal steps to end the pregnancy, that there were mitigating circumstances, none would deny it is traumatic, but that same logic cuts counter to the idea that they can make the decision and others may follow it. I can kill someone in a rage or in a state of insanity, temporary or not, and receive a lower punishment then a premeditated act committed in a reasonable sound frame of mind. I can't kill someone who someone not of sound mind has dragged before me claiming is a murderer or rapist or what have you. Their emotional state doesn't excuse me doing it. So the case for a tangible difference would seem to boil down to the idea that we wouldn't prosecute a rape victim for premeditated murder trying to end - successfully or not - a pregnancy. Not because the abortion was just or okay, but because they might be deemed temporarily insane. But again, this whole line of reasoning seriously damages their standing as a legitimate decision maker and only functions in the context of an assumption of personhood anyway. Thus it pretty much eliminates them using a doctor for the process, as they certainly are under no obligation, nor legal or ethical protection, to end another's life at the behest of someone else who can't be said to have that person's best interests in mind and be particularly raitonal themselves... and if they are rational, then I have difficulty seeing the case for severe emotional trauma sufficient to justify the death as self-defense.

Not just that pregnant women seeking abortions are legally incompetent by definition (though I would not say that loudly either ;)) but that objective rational doctors performing abortions are criminals who may be justifiably resisted. Prosecuting them manifestly means they committed a crime: Which one? Murder, or manslaughter? That was the Army of Gods rationale for murdering abortion doctors: Killing an attempted murderer to prevent murder is legally justified. It is the same rationale a (GOP) NH Sheriff candidate uses to justify saying lethal force is legally justified to prevent abortion.

Personally, I think the Doe decision vastly overextended health exemptions when it defined "psychologoical harm" so broadly ANYTHING qualifies. I can understand it in cases like Andrea Yates, but annoyance at swollen feet should not justify a third trimester abortion, yet Doe says it does. It baffles me that the SCOTUS permanently joined such an extreme decision to the quite reasonable Roe decision allowing pre-viability abortion on demand.

All that said, the harm of an unplanned pregnancy is far more than psychological. It carries financial and other burdens at least until the child is eighteen. Part of the frustration is that most people insisting government has every duty to possible pre-natal life insist just as strongly it has none to definite post-natal life. Is demanding people bear children they cannot feed, clothe, house, educate or give medical care, then denying that support, not unreasonable? When Obama (but not Romney) required people buy insurance, without ensuring they could, Republicans called it (truthfully) unfair and (falsely) unconstitutional; how is requiring people raise children, without ensuring they can, any less so?

Regarding your initial questions, the answer to the first is "only God knows for certain," which obviates all the rest.
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Again I concede you are right: The GOP position has not changed; that is the problem.
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Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off - 22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM 1194 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest. - 22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM 793 Views
Erm... what on earth is that? - 22/08/2012 11:19:13 PM 582 Views
Celebrity Big Brother in the UK - 22/08/2012 11:22:17 PM 665 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate - 23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM 742 Views
Bullshit - 23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM 638 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway - 23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM 675 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic. - 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM 964 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments - 24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM 596 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way. - 24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM 662 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too - 24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM 701 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led. - 24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM 780 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary - 24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM 699 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either. - 24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM 898 Views
I'm not even sure what that means - 25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM 594 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads. - 25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM 679 Views
Okay, we're done here - 26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM 654 Views
Quotes are not my opinion. - 26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM 601 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education. - 26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM 745 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually? - 27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM 736 Views
T^T - 27/08/2012 04:39:33 AM 662 Views
Is that the emoticon for perky titties? *NM* - 27/08/2012 11:07:06 PM 334 Views
He is an absolute berk. *NM* - 23/08/2012 01:08:58 AM 523 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments. - 23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM 764 Views
Really? *NM* - 23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM 393 Views
Yeah. - 23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM 666 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response. - 23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM 659 Views
Heh, I didn't think so. - 23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM 704 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context. - 23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM 808 Views
Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM 609 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM 683 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM 616 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries. - 23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM 656 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air - 23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM 684 Views
No argument there. - 23/08/2012 11:46:01 PM 691 Views
This - 23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM 691 Views
Okay. I misunderstood. Sorry. *NM* - 23/08/2012 09:58:20 PM 359 Views
Eh - 23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM 637 Views
Well, I didn't take it that way. - 23/08/2012 10:42:01 PM 765 Views
Good - 24/08/2012 02:20:27 AM 714 Views
Ah, I can understand if that is the case. - 23/08/2012 07:46:38 PM 693 Views
I read it the same way Jen did - 23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM 656 Views
Why? - 23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM 675 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it. - 23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM 680 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely. - 23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM 629 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule. - 23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM 660 Views
Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM 633 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM 617 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM 603 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM 703 Views
couple things - 24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM 598 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM 665 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:45:38 PM 588 Views
Re: couple things - 25/08/2012 12:11:03 AM 654 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange. - 24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM 633 Views
Ew. - 24/08/2012 06:56:27 PM 641 Views
Yes, that about covers it. - 24/08/2012 07:42:13 PM 616 Views
Yes, I was talking about Galoway and what he said - 25/08/2012 12:15:15 AM 784 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:34:51 PM 706 Views
I can - 23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM 570 Views
I gotta say I am with Paul - 24/08/2012 12:27:44 AM 675 Views
Hm. - 24/08/2012 02:08:33 AM 587 Views
OK - 23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM 625 Views
Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM 588 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM 777 Views
To start again then Joel - 23/08/2012 11:14:07 PM 607 Views
My mistake then, sorry. - 23/08/2012 11:32:34 PM 648 Views
Agreeing without agreeing. - 23/08/2012 12:24:10 PM 726 Views
I have gotten used to you being right for the wrong reasons. - 23/08/2012 07:42:32 PM 622 Views
Yes - 23/08/2012 06:34:38 AM 763 Views
Indeed - 23/08/2012 08:47:40 PM 604 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets - 23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM 697 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit - 23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM 630 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned - 24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM 619 Views
well, that is where I'm confused. - 24/08/2012 07:03:16 PM 647 Views
Maybe I watch to much CNN - 24/08/2012 07:30:23 PM 587 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well. - 24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM 668 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate. - 24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM 816 Views
Interesting. - 24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM 605 Views
no it isn't kinda true - 24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM 631 Views

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