I do tend to hold to those two absolutes but I add a layer, so I'm open to adding another. My normal is:
1) Is a fetus a human? Modifier: at what point is this the case?
2) If human, is there a reasonable duration and degree of risk/burden to which a person - as the sole person able to do so - can be expected to endure to preserve another's life?
So your point, re: consequences, would I think factor in on #2. My issue is that #2 is essentially the 'burden' aspect. The continuing problem is that the burdens are mostly psychological - all too real - but still in the mind. A degree of harm sufficient to tip the scales is also, I'd think, almost by definition sufficient to rightly declare that person not of sound mind where the decision is being made. Where a significant physical risk is involved, we enter the realm of triage anyway, so only in the case of a relatively normal pregnancy does the psychological damage come into play.
Yet to utilize this argument someone must first acknowledge that a fetus is a human, or is very probably so, or it's an irrelevant point. At this, we now have a human life who will have their fate decided by a person who's justification is not without merit but is also the book definition of why we do not let individuals end others lives without a reasonable threat of imminent danger to themselves or others that isn't present here.
Not just that pregnant women who want abortions are legally incompetent by definition (though I would not say that too loudly either,) but that
If #1 is "No" then the reason given for an abortion is irrelevant. If Yes then it's a human, and a case has to be made for ending their life. Placing that decision in the hands strictly of someone who's case is that the pregnancy itself is traumatic to them violates the very core of our legal and ethical system. We can certainly say, of someone who took personal steps to end the pregnancy, that there were mitigating circumstances, none would deny it is traumatic, but that same logic cuts counter to the idea that they can make the decision and others may follow it. I can kill someone in a rage or in a state of insanity, temporary or not, and receive a lower punishment then a premeditated act committed in a reasonable sound frame of mind. I can't kill someone who someone not of sound mind has dragged before me claiming is a murderer or rapist or what have you. Their emotional state doesn't excuse me doing it. So the case for a tangible difference would seem to boil down to the idea that we wouldn't prosecute a rape victim for premeditated murder trying to end - successfully or not - a pregnancy. Not because the abortion was just or okay, but because they might be deemed temporarily insane. But again, this whole line of reasoning seriously damages their standing as a legitimate decision maker and only functions in the context of an assumption of personhood anyway. Thus it pretty much eliminates them using a doctor for the process, as they certainly are under no obligation, nor legal or ethical protection, to end another's life at the behest of someone else who can't be said to have that person's best interests in mind and be particularly raitonal themselves... and if they are rational, then I have difficulty seeing the case for severe emotional trauma sufficient to justify the death as self-defense.
1) Is a fetus a human? Modifier: at what point is this the case?
2) If human, is there a reasonable duration and degree of risk/burden to which a person - as the sole person able to do so - can be expected to endure to preserve another's life?
So your point, re: consequences, would I think factor in on #2. My issue is that #2 is essentially the 'burden' aspect. The continuing problem is that the burdens are mostly psychological - all too real - but still in the mind. A degree of harm sufficient to tip the scales is also, I'd think, almost by definition sufficient to rightly declare that person not of sound mind where the decision is being made. Where a significant physical risk is involved, we enter the realm of triage anyway, so only in the case of a relatively normal pregnancy does the psychological damage come into play.
Yet to utilize this argument someone must first acknowledge that a fetus is a human, or is very probably so, or it's an irrelevant point. At this, we now have a human life who will have their fate decided by a person who's justification is not without merit but is also the book definition of why we do not let individuals end others lives without a reasonable threat of imminent danger to themselves or others that isn't present here.
Not just that pregnant women who want abortions are legally incompetent by definition (though I would not say that too loudly either,) but that
If #1 is "No" then the reason given for an abortion is irrelevant. If Yes then it's a human, and a case has to be made for ending their life. Placing that decision in the hands strictly of someone who's case is that the pregnancy itself is traumatic to them violates the very core of our legal and ethical system. We can certainly say, of someone who took personal steps to end the pregnancy, that there were mitigating circumstances, none would deny it is traumatic, but that same logic cuts counter to the idea that they can make the decision and others may follow it. I can kill someone in a rage or in a state of insanity, temporary or not, and receive a lower punishment then a premeditated act committed in a reasonable sound frame of mind. I can't kill someone who someone not of sound mind has dragged before me claiming is a murderer or rapist or what have you. Their emotional state doesn't excuse me doing it. So the case for a tangible difference would seem to boil down to the idea that we wouldn't prosecute a rape victim for premeditated murder trying to end - successfully or not - a pregnancy. Not because the abortion was just or okay, but because they might be deemed temporarily insane. But again, this whole line of reasoning seriously damages their standing as a legitimate decision maker and only functions in the context of an assumption of personhood anyway. Thus it pretty much eliminates them using a doctor for the process, as they certainly are under no obligation, nor legal or ethical protection, to end another's life at the behest of someone else who can't be said to have that person's best interests in mind and be particularly raitonal themselves... and if they are rational, then I have difficulty seeing the case for severe emotional trauma sufficient to justify the death as self-defense.
Not just that pregnant women seeking abortions are legally incompetent by definition (though I would not say that loudly either
) but that objective rational doctors performing abortions are criminals who may be justifiably resisted. Prosecuting them manifestly means they committed a crime: Which one? Murder, or manslaughter? That was the Army of Gods rationale for murdering abortion doctors: Killing an attempted murderer to prevent murder is legally justified. It is the same rationale a (GOP) NH Sheriff candidate uses to justify saying lethal force is legally justified to prevent abortion.Personally, I think the Doe decision vastly overextended health exemptions when it defined "psychologoical harm" so broadly ANYTHING qualifies. I can understand it in cases like Andrea Yates, but annoyance at swollen feet should not justify a third trimester abortion, yet Doe says it does. It baffles me that the SCOTUS permanently joined such an extreme decision to the quite reasonable Roe decision allowing pre-viability abortion on demand.
All that said, the harm of an unplanned pregnancy is far more than psychological. It carries financial and other burdens at least until the child is eighteen. Part of the frustration is that most people insisting government has every duty to possible pre-natal life insist just as strongly it has none to definite post-natal life. Is demanding people bear children they cannot feed, clothe, house, educate or give medical care, then denying that support, not unreasonable? When Obama (but not Romney) required people buy insurance, without ensuring they could, Republicans called it (truthfully) unfair and (falsely) unconstitutional; how is requiring people raise children, without ensuring they can, any less so?
Regarding your initial questions, the answer to the first is "only God knows for certain," which obviates all the rest.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off
- 22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM
1109 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest.
- 22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM
690 Views
That is second on my list of things I remember about him, probably down to third now.
- 22/08/2012 11:21:17 PM
595 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate
- 23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM
647 Views
Bullshit
- 23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM
549 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway
- 23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM
588 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic.
- 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM
842 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments
- 24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM
506 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way.
- 24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM
576 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too
- 24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM
588 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led.
- 24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM
666 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary
- 24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM
616 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either.
- 24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM
792 Views
I'm not even sure what that means
- 25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM
512 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads.
- 25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM
580 Views
Okay, we're done here
- 26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM
551 Views
Quotes are not my opinion.
- 26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM
516 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education.
- 26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM
610 Views
Further post-secondary education, you mean; probably so, though not for the reasons you stated.
- 26/08/2012 08:20:45 PM
562 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually?
- 27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM
639 Views
It has nothing to do with consequences or responsibility. It's about life & privacy. Period
- 23/08/2012 12:04:55 PM
671 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments.
- 23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM
635 Views
Really? *NM*
- 23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM
350 Views
Yeah.
- 23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM
574 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response.
- 23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM
570 Views
Heh, I didn't think so.
- 23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM
612 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context.
- 23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM
709 Views
Yes, I saw that.
- 23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM
519 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that.
- 23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM
550 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that.
- 23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM
525 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries.
- 23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM
558 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air
- 23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM
600 Views
This
- 23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM
602 Views
Eh
- 23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM
552 Views
I read it the same way Jen did
- 23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM
510 Views
Why?
- 23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM
591 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it.
- 23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM
585 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely.
- 23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM
548 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule.
- 23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM
571 Views
Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM
547 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM
523 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM
512 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM
609 Views
couple things
- 24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM
512 Views
Re: couple things
- 24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM
545 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange.
- 24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM
527 Views
I can
- 23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM
485 Views
OK
- 23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM
534 Views
Bullshit.
- 23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM
492 Views
Re: Bullshit.
- 23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
688 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets
- 23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM
600 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit
- 23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM
539 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned
- 24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM
523 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well.
- 24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM
571 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate.
- 24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM
730 Views
Interesting.
- 24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM
514 Views
Yeah, that about covers it; personally, I am developing a grudging respect for Akin.
- 24/08/2012 06:30:43 AM
586 Views
no it isn't kinda true
- 24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM
491 Views
The MO GOP voters who nominated him for being "most conservative" think it is.
- 25/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
526 Views


