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That is a dangerous line of logic. Joel Send a noteboard - 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM
I do tend to hold to those two absolutes but I add a layer, so I'm open to adding another. My normal is:

1) Is a fetus a human? Modifier: at what point is this the case?
2) If human, is there a reasonable duration and degree of risk/burden to which a person - as the sole person able to do so - can be expected to endure to preserve another's life?

So your point, re: consequences, would I think factor in on #2. My issue is that #2 is essentially the 'burden' aspect. The continuing problem is that the burdens are mostly psychological - all too real - but still in the mind. A degree of harm sufficient to tip the scales is also, I'd think, almost by definition sufficient to rightly declare that person not of sound mind where the decision is being made. Where a significant physical risk is involved, we enter the realm of triage anyway, so only in the case of a relatively normal pregnancy does the psychological damage come into play.

Yet to utilize this argument someone must first acknowledge that a fetus is a human, or is very probably so, or it's an irrelevant point. At this, we now have a human life who will have their fate decided by a person who's justification is not without merit but is also the book definition of why we do not let individuals end others lives without a reasonable threat of imminent danger to themselves or others that isn't present here.
Not just that pregnant women who want abortions are legally incompetent by definition (though I would not say that too loudly either,) but that

If #1 is "No" then the reason given for an abortion is irrelevant. If Yes then it's a human, and a case has to be made for ending their life. Placing that decision in the hands strictly of someone who's case is that the pregnancy itself is traumatic to them violates the very core of our legal and ethical system. We can certainly say, of someone who took personal steps to end the pregnancy, that there were mitigating circumstances, none would deny it is traumatic, but that same logic cuts counter to the idea that they can make the decision and others may follow it. I can kill someone in a rage or in a state of insanity, temporary or not, and receive a lower punishment then a premeditated act committed in a reasonable sound frame of mind. I can't kill someone who someone not of sound mind has dragged before me claiming is a murderer or rapist or what have you. Their emotional state doesn't excuse me doing it. So the case for a tangible difference would seem to boil down to the idea that we wouldn't prosecute a rape victim for premeditated murder trying to end - successfully or not - a pregnancy. Not because the abortion was just or okay, but because they might be deemed temporarily insane. But again, this whole line of reasoning seriously damages their standing as a legitimate decision maker and only functions in the context of an assumption of personhood anyway. Thus it pretty much eliminates them using a doctor for the process, as they certainly are under no obligation, nor legal or ethical protection, to end another's life at the behest of someone else who can't be said to have that person's best interests in mind and be particularly raitonal themselves... and if they are rational, then I have difficulty seeing the case for severe emotional trauma sufficient to justify the death as self-defense.

Not just that pregnant women seeking abortions are legally incompetent by definition (though I would not say that loudly either ;)) but that objective rational doctors performing abortions are criminals who may be justifiably resisted. Prosecuting them manifestly means they committed a crime: Which one? Murder, or manslaughter? That was the Army of Gods rationale for murdering abortion doctors: Killing an attempted murderer to prevent murder is legally justified. It is the same rationale a (GOP) NH Sheriff candidate uses to justify saying lethal force is legally justified to prevent abortion.

Personally, I think the Doe decision vastly overextended health exemptions when it defined "psychologoical harm" so broadly ANYTHING qualifies. I can understand it in cases like Andrea Yates, but annoyance at swollen feet should not justify a third trimester abortion, yet Doe says it does. It baffles me that the SCOTUS permanently joined such an extreme decision to the quite reasonable Roe decision allowing pre-viability abortion on demand.

All that said, the harm of an unplanned pregnancy is far more than psychological. It carries financial and other burdens at least until the child is eighteen. Part of the frustration is that most people insisting government has every duty to possible pre-natal life insist just as strongly it has none to definite post-natal life. Is demanding people bear children they cannot feed, clothe, house, educate or give medical care, then denying that support, not unreasonable? When Obama (but not Romney) required people buy insurance, without ensuring they could, Republicans called it (truthfully) unfair and (falsely) unconstitutional; how is requiring people raise children, without ensuring they can, any less so?

Regarding your initial questions, the answer to the first is "only God knows for certain," which obviates all the rest.
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Again I concede you are right: The GOP position has not changed; that is the problem.
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Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off - 22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM 1054 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest. - 22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM 625 Views
Erm... what on earth is that? - 22/08/2012 11:19:13 PM 447 Views
Celebrity Big Brother in the UK - 22/08/2012 11:22:17 PM 494 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate - 23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM 595 Views
Bullshit - 23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM 501 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway - 23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM 519 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic. - 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM 752 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments - 24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM 452 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way. - 24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM 521 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too - 24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM 536 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led. - 24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM 617 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary - 24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM 569 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either. - 24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM 731 Views
I'm not even sure what that means - 25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM 462 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads. - 25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM 525 Views
Okay, we're done here - 26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM 494 Views
Quotes are not my opinion. - 26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM 468 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education. - 26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM 558 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually? - 27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM 586 Views
T^T - 27/08/2012 04:39:33 AM 510 Views
Is that the emoticon for perky titties? *NM* - 27/08/2012 11:07:06 PM 250 Views
He is an absolute berk. *NM* - 23/08/2012 01:08:58 AM 452 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments. - 23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM 578 Views
Really? *NM* - 23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM 329 Views
Yeah. - 23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM 526 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response. - 23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM 520 Views
Heh, I didn't think so. - 23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM 564 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context. - 23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM 654 Views
Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM 474 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM 501 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM 477 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries. - 23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM 502 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air - 23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM 546 Views
No argument there. - 23/08/2012 11:46:01 PM 535 Views
This - 23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM 549 Views
Okay. I misunderstood. Sorry. *NM* - 23/08/2012 09:58:20 PM 299 Views
Eh - 23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM 494 Views
Well, I didn't take it that way. - 23/08/2012 10:42:01 PM 564 Views
Good - 24/08/2012 02:20:27 AM 562 Views
Ah, I can understand if that is the case. - 23/08/2012 07:46:38 PM 526 Views
I read it the same way Jen did - 23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM 461 Views
Why? - 23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM 540 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it. - 23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM 527 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely. - 23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM 502 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule. - 23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM 513 Views
Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM 487 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM 454 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM 458 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM 558 Views
couple things - 24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM 465 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM 498 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:45:38 PM 446 Views
Re: couple things - 25/08/2012 12:11:03 AM 491 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange. - 24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM 473 Views
Ew. - 24/08/2012 06:56:27 PM 509 Views
Yes, that about covers it. - 24/08/2012 07:42:13 PM 479 Views
Yes, I was talking about Galoway and what he said - 25/08/2012 12:15:15 AM 617 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:34:51 PM 545 Views
I can - 23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM 434 Views
I gotta say I am with Paul - 24/08/2012 12:27:44 AM 533 Views
Hm. - 24/08/2012 02:08:33 AM 450 Views
OK - 23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM 477 Views
Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM 446 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM 638 Views
To start again then Joel - 23/08/2012 11:14:07 PM 462 Views
My mistake then, sorry. - 23/08/2012 11:32:34 PM 499 Views
Agreeing without agreeing. - 23/08/2012 12:24:10 PM 561 Views
I have gotten used to you being right for the wrong reasons. - 23/08/2012 07:42:32 PM 471 Views
Yes - 23/08/2012 06:34:38 AM 629 Views
Indeed - 23/08/2012 08:47:40 PM 456 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets - 23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM 555 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit - 23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM 474 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned - 24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM 472 Views
well, that is where I'm confused. - 24/08/2012 07:03:16 PM 501 Views
Maybe I watch to much CNN - 24/08/2012 07:30:23 PM 450 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well. - 24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM 527 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate. - 24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM 673 Views
Interesting. - 24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM 464 Views
no it isn't kinda true - 24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM 443 Views

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