I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led.
Joel Send a noteboard - 24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM
Specifically, to declaring all women with just cause for abortion legally incompetent, and abortion doctors accomplices to murder. The latter is why a Sheriff candidate from a certain party says it is OK to kill them regardless of the law.
In which moral system does possibility of humanity transfer judgment to a single individual that isn't the possible-human in question where consultation with others is permitted by time and circumstance?
Busitng out the Simpsons references... If I hear a voice from the bottom of a well but don't know if it's Bart's 2-way radio or little Timmy, I am very much not permitted by any reasonable ethic in making a decision that it is a radio and dismissing it out of hand, I mostly certainly do not get to drop a grenade down there, I am morally required to bring others in on the decision and we must establish that it is a radio very, very firmly before abandoning the well.
The moral systems where people are not obliged to accept burdens from a possible being with reasonable doubt it is a being and no way to be sure. In your analogy there is no such reason to doubt the voice is a person in the well, and verifying it is/not is easy. The crux of Roe is that we cannot know the fetal state but manifestly know the womans. Thus the latter has priority and, even did it not, sole discretion to decide the former.
Agreed. I followed your logic, and responded to it; just not with agreement.
First, the burden you reference is not solely psychological: Parenthood creates two-decade finanical burdens of feeding, clothing, housing, providing healthcare for and often educating a child. That is burdensome without impairing decision making, and thus obviates the remaining discussion. However....
Rebuttal: Adoption, remarks complete
Counterpoint: Death or serious injury to the mother, unless you concede that exception under "triage."
I acknowledge it's a Catch-22, hence my irritation with you. I am not making light of Roland's argument but pointing out the tragic paradox of the situation. I could not in good faith aid someone whose reason I had good cause to doubt by following their planned action. I would have to evaluate it and justify it myself, I could not simply concede the decision to them then assist them in carrying it out. I could make a case that others could make the decision yea or nay for them, or that we could not blame someone who did it on their own. What I can't do is make a case for assisting someone in carrying out a decision they alone are considered allowed to make when I have every reason to believe the justification for that decision is itself cause to question their competence to make the decision.
How does your false dichotomy justify irritation with me? If unwanted pregnancys trauma destroys legal competence, everyone is incompetent to make any serious medical decision for themselves or family. A mother with a critically ill child is competent to decide treatment, but a possible mother too stressed for competence to decide whether to end the pregnancy?
In terms of letting those with comptence the woman lacks decide, no law requires any doctor perform an abortion, so all doctors may be that other person (Does health exception effectively requires it.) In fact, in terms of competence itself, guess who decides THAT: Doctors.
I said no such thing. I said the obvious, that the situation does not necessarily effect the doctor's soundness of mind. I have no cause to believe any non-friend or non-relative will be significantly inclined to be irrational specifically because of the circumstances.
*IF* we assumed that a fetus was or most likely was human, *then* a doctor would not be justified in ending their life, actually pretty much period unless it was a situation of triage. Again, ethical conundrum. If the fetus is a person then the doctor, as a doctor, can do no harm, but regardless the doctor has no business making life-ending decisions without a medical emergency on the say so of someone who is not only not the life to be ended but is also claiming justification to end the life from the mental trauma they will/are experiencing and presumably are operating already under extreme mental trauma from the rape.
Yes, it's a Catch-22... that's the point.
There is no ethical conundrum, because the doctor not only can but must decide whether to perform the abortion whatever the woman wants for whatever reason. The doctor is also more capable of determining her mental state than anyone not medically trained, largely eliminating that concern. That concern is not great in the first place, because the trauma of unwanted pregancy does not automatically make her incompetent any more than the trauma of a gunshot wound or cancer would. Ignoring all that to say her mere desire for abortion makes her legally incompetent to decide on it, and the doctor thus criminal in performing it, is just bad logic.
However (and despite your deleting that part,) calling fetuses beings illegal to kill, and doctors accountable for doing so, is also dangerous, because it legally permits all efforts necessary to prevent the illegal killing. Calling abortion murder the law cannot prevent declares open season on abortion doctors. If abortion is murder, the law cannot prevent it, anyone physically impeding it is arrested and there is no other way to prevent a doctor on his way into his office murdering babies once inside, killing him is justifiable homicide. That is where your argument inexorably leads, has led countless times. That is a terminus, not tangent.
Actually, such exceptions only require a fetus MAY be human. That uncertainty exists but, IMHO, justifies leaving the judgement call with the person it affects.
In which moral system does possibility of humanity transfer judgment to a single individual that isn't the possible-human in question where consultation with others is permitted by time and circumstance?
Busitng out the Simpsons references... If I hear a voice from the bottom of a well but don't know if it's Bart's 2-way radio or little Timmy, I am very much not permitted by any reasonable ethic in making a decision that it is a radio and dismissing it out of hand, I mostly certainly do not get to drop a grenade down there, I am morally required to bring others in on the decision and we must establish that it is a radio very, very firmly before abandoning the well.
The moral systems where people are not obliged to accept burdens from a possible being with reasonable doubt it is a being and no way to be sure. In your analogy there is no such reason to doubt the voice is a person in the well, and verifying it is/not is easy. The crux of Roe is that we cannot know the fetal state but manifestly know the womans. Thus the latter has priority and, even did it not, sole discretion to decide the former.
So baby steps, lets walk through this, stay on topic with your reply please. If fetus does not equal human then no justification is needed for an abortion, thus no need for a rape exception. Discussing a rape exception requires one to assume there is a need for one, hence fetus=human or no exception needed... if so then:
1) If fetus = human then one can not end the life without justification.
Agree or disagree?
1) If fetus = human then one can not end the life without justification.
Agree or disagree?
Agreed. I followed your logic, and responded to it; just not with agreement.
First, the burden you reference is not solely psychological: Parenthood creates two-decade finanical burdens of feeding, clothing, housing, providing healthcare for and often educating a child. That is burdensome without impairing decision making, and thus obviates the remaining discussion. However....
Rebuttal: Adoption, remarks complete
Counterpoint: Death or serious injury to the mother, unless you concede that exception under "triage."
Even were the burden purely psychological you made it an invalid Catch 22: Any burden justifying abortion renders women incompetent to consent, and no less burden can justify it. Having cause denies cause; cute, but false. Many situations cause great stress without removing legal competence to respond (in medical decisions concerning oneself or family, often.) Claiming women with just cause for abortion are "not of sound mind where the decision is being made" is gross overstatement.
I acknowledge it's a Catch-22, hence my irritation with you. I am not making light of Roland's argument but pointing out the tragic paradox of the situation. I could not in good faith aid someone whose reason I had good cause to doubt by following their planned action. I would have to evaluate it and justify it myself, I could not simply concede the decision to them then assist them in carrying it out. I could make a case that others could make the decision yea or nay for them, or that we could not blame someone who did it on their own. What I can't do is make a case for assisting someone in carrying out a decision they alone are considered allowed to make when I have every reason to believe the justification for that decision is itself cause to question their competence to make the decision.
How does your false dichotomy justify irritation with me? If unwanted pregnancys trauma destroys legal competence, everyone is incompetent to make any serious medical decision for themselves or family. A mother with a critically ill child is competent to decide treatment, but a possible mother too stressed for competence to decide whether to end the pregnancy?

Following from assertions abortion is motivated by psychological burdens making women unfit to decide on it, you concluded abortion doctors retain unburdened objective rationality, and are thus legally accountable. You completely ignored the role of the doctors primary concern (their patients interests,) assuming the only motive is an "irrational" persons (your word, not mine) request. Therefore, you concluded, doctors have no "legal or ethical protection" for peforming abortion.
I said no such thing. I said the obvious, that the situation does not necessarily effect the doctor's soundness of mind. I have no cause to believe any non-friend or non-relative will be significantly inclined to be irrational specifically because of the circumstances.
*IF* we assumed that a fetus was or most likely was human, *then* a doctor would not be justified in ending their life, actually pretty much period unless it was a situation of triage. Again, ethical conundrum. If the fetus is a person then the doctor, as a doctor, can do no harm, but regardless the doctor has no business making life-ending decisions without a medical emergency on the say so of someone who is not only not the life to be ended but is also claiming justification to end the life from the mental trauma they will/are experiencing and presumably are operating already under extreme mental trauma from the rape.
Yes, it's a Catch-22... that's the point.
There is no ethical conundrum, because the doctor not only can but must decide whether to perform the abortion whatever the woman wants for whatever reason. The doctor is also more capable of determining her mental state than anyone not medically trained, largely eliminating that concern. That concern is not great in the first place, because the trauma of unwanted pregancy does not automatically make her incompetent any more than the trauma of a gunshot wound or cancer would. Ignoring all that to say her mere desire for abortion makes her legally incompetent to decide on it, and the doctor thus criminal in performing it, is just bad logic.
However (and despite your deleting that part,) calling fetuses beings illegal to kill, and doctors accountable for doing so, is also dangerous, because it legally permits all efforts necessary to prevent the illegal killing. Calling abortion murder the law cannot prevent declares open season on abortion doctors. If abortion is murder, the law cannot prevent it, anyone physically impeding it is arrested and there is no other way to prevent a doctor on his way into his office murdering babies once inside, killing him is justifiable homicide. That is where your argument inexorably leads, has led countless times. That is a terminus, not tangent.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off
22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM
- 1056 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest.
22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM
- 625 Views
That is second on my list of things I remember about him, probably down to third now.
22/08/2012 11:21:17 PM
- 546 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate
23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM
- 596 Views
Bullshit
23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM
- 502 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway
23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM
- 519 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic.
23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM
- 752 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments
24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM
- 452 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way.
24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM
- 521 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too
24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM
- 536 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led.
24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM
- 619 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary
24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM
- 570 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either.
24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM
- 731 Views
I'm not even sure what that means
25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM
- 462 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads.
25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM
- 525 Views
Okay, we're done here
26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM
- 495 Views
Quotes are not my opinion.
26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM
- 468 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education.
26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM
- 558 Views
Further post-secondary education, you mean; probably so, though not for the reasons you stated.
26/08/2012 08:20:45 PM
- 514 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually?
27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM
- 587 Views
It has nothing to do with consequences or responsibility. It's about life & privacy. Period
23/08/2012 12:04:55 PM
- 621 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments.
23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM
- 578 Views
Really? *NM*
23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM
- 329 Views
Yeah.
23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM
- 527 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response.
23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM
- 520 Views
Heh, I didn't think so.
23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM
- 564 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context.
23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM
- 655 Views
Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM
- 475 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM
- 502 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM
- 478 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries.
23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM
- 502 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air
23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM
- 546 Views
This
23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM
- 549 Views
Eh
23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM
- 494 Views
I read it the same way Jen did
23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM
- 461 Views
Why?
23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM
- 540 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it.
23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM
- 528 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely.
23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM
- 503 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule.
23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM
- 513 Views
Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM
- 488 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM
- 454 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM
- 458 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM
- 558 Views
couple things
24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM
- 465 Views
Re: couple things
24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM
- 498 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange.
24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM
- 473 Views
I can
23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM
- 434 Views
OK
23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM
- 477 Views
Bullshit.
23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM
- 446 Views
Re: Bullshit.
23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
- 638 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets
23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM
- 556 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit
23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM
- 475 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned
24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM
- 473 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well.
24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM
- 527 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate.
24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM
- 675 Views
Interesting.
24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM
- 464 Views
Yeah, that about covers it; personally, I am developing a grudging respect for Akin.
24/08/2012 06:30:43 AM
- 520 Views
no it isn't kinda true
24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM
- 445 Views
The MO GOP voters who nominated him for being "most conservative" think it is.
25/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
- 478 Views