Almost may count in hand grenades, but definitely not in canon.
Joel Send a noteboard - 26/10/2012 10:28:57 PM
Joel Send a noteboard - 26/10/2012 10:28:57 PM
...the problem is that if you're looking at it from a traditional Christian perspective then your nine week statement is just as arbitrary as any other. While the Bible doesn't say anything about abortion, there are plenty of early Christian works that nearly made the Bible that do explicitly prohibit abortion generally:
οὐ φονευσεις τεκνον ἐν φθορᾷ οὐδε γεννηθεν αποκτενεις - Didache 2:2.
Thou shalt not kill a child in the womb, nor shalt thou kill one born.
NB: Barnabas repeats the exact phrase with the sole modification that it puts the word παλιν, "already" before γεννηθεν, "born". The text of "thou shalt not kill" in the Septuagint is identical: οὐ φονευσεις.
Because I know how touchy you are on dating issues, let me quote from the critical apparatus:
The Didache may have been put into its present form as late as 150, though a date considerably closer to the end of the first century seems more probable. The materials from which it was composed reflect the state of the church at an even earlier time. The relative simplicity of the prayers, the continuing concern to differentiate Christian practice from Jewish rituals (8.1), and in particular the form of church structure - note the twofold structure of bishops and deacons (cf. Phil. 1:1) and the continued existence of traveling apostles and prophets alongside a resident ministry - reflect a time closer to that of Paul and James (who died in the 60s) than Ignatius (who died sometime after 110).
As a result, while I applaud your newly-found logical skills (
), Jeordam can fall back on a Christian tradition that makes no distinction on the timing of abortion unless you can somehow qualify the statements made in the Early Church.
οὐ φονευσεις τεκνον ἐν φθορᾷ οὐδε γεννηθεν αποκτενεις - Didache 2:2.
Thou shalt not kill a child in the womb, nor shalt thou kill one born.
NB: Barnabas repeats the exact phrase with the sole modification that it puts the word παλιν, "already" before γεννηθεν, "born". The text of "thou shalt not kill" in the Septuagint is identical: οὐ φονευσεις.
Because I know how touchy you are on dating issues, let me quote from the critical apparatus:
The Didache may have been put into its present form as late as 150, though a date considerably closer to the end of the first century seems more probable. The materials from which it was composed reflect the state of the church at an even earlier time. The relative simplicity of the prayers, the continuing concern to differentiate Christian practice from Jewish rituals (8.1), and in particular the form of church structure - note the twofold structure of bishops and deacons (cf. Phil. 1:1) and the continued existence of traveling apostles and prophets alongside a resident ministry - reflect a time closer to that of Paul and James (who died in the 60s) than Ignatius (who died sometime after 110).
As a result, while I applaud your newly-found logical skills (
), Jeordam can fall back on a Christian tradition that makes no distinction on the timing of abortion unless you can somehow qualify the statements made in the Early Church.I am far less willing to take the whole New Testament on faith, because much of it never makes any claims to divine inspiration. There is a huge difference between designating Exodus the second book of Gods holy law, delivered through the divinely inspired prophets, and Paul advising a little wine for Timothys indisgestion, or penning a personal plea with which a fugitive slave can seek clemency on voluntary return to his master. Yet even the Didache fell short of the high canon standards Timothy and Philemon somehow met. I fault none of them, but neither do I hang my spiritual hat on their entirety, at least not automatically.
Setting all that aside though, we would still have a variation of the same basic problem: Forbidding us to "kill a child in the womb" does not establish when it becomes a child. Until/unless it does, the prohibition applies no more to a fetus than to a cancerous lung. Egg cells are alive with or without fertilization, yet billions of womens bodies kill them monthly, and no one (including God) calls it murder. The issue is not whether murder should be legal, but when there is a person TO murder.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
God Distances Self From Christian Right
- 26/10/2012 01:56:18 PM
1421 Views
Do you really think God would condone abortion? *NM*
- 26/10/2012 03:28:25 PM
431 Views
Depends on when a fetus is a being, which the GOP contends is "at the moment of fertilization."
- 26/10/2012 03:57:44 PM
717 Views
Actually, I don't see any place in the Bible where God is....
- 26/10/2012 04:00:19 PM
913 Views
Where did I say one word about God accommodating our sin?
- 26/10/2012 05:55:52 PM
759 Views
You're technically right, Joel, but...
- 26/10/2012 07:32:10 PM
750 Views
Almost may count in hand grenades, but definitely not in canon.
- 26/10/2012 10:28:57 PM
810 Views
- 26/10/2012 10:28:57 PM
810 Views
Your lack of scientific understanding is everything in this instance.
- 26/10/2012 10:44:05 PM
763 Views
Because whether God intends rape is aaaall about science, right?
- 26/10/2012 11:08:16 PM
667 Views
You're getting rather emphatic.
- 26/10/2012 11:27:07 PM
719 Views
Broad fundamental change to US law by controlling all three branches of government provokes that.
- 27/10/2012 12:44:59 AM
743 Views
Condemn women to die? What a strange way to look at this.
- 26/10/2012 07:17:16 PM
780 Views
women *did* die before abortion was legalized, there should be no dispute of this aspect
- 26/10/2012 07:27:28 PM
813 Views
So we legalize an illegal act because some are willing to harm themselves to do it? *NM*
- 26/10/2012 10:02:37 PM
416 Views
no, we legalize the act so that it can be performed safely without killing both mother *and* child *NM*
- 26/10/2012 11:08:52 PM
407 Views
Very good point, but that was not (at least soley) what I meant, no.
- 26/10/2012 11:12:32 PM
731 Views
If something should be illegal in its own right, it is nonsense to legalize it because criminals
- 26/10/2012 11:40:41 PM
756 Views
If banning it saves no lives but inevitably takes more, the ban is counterproductive.
- 27/10/2012 12:48:51 AM
797 Views
That is absolutely absurd. It saves the lives of all...
- 27/10/2012 12:59:16 AM
795 Views
you're still missing the point that abortions will still be performed if it were illegal
- 27/10/2012 01:02:57 AM
733 Views
I'm not missing the point, you are.
- 27/10/2012 01:21:39 AM
859 Views
This isn't necessarily true, though it is often due to other factors.
- 27/10/2012 02:48:00 PM
754 Views
People who want abortions badly enough to have one will, whether or not law makes it "convenient."
- 27/10/2012 02:58:52 AM
712 Views
Telling a woman whose life was in danger not to save it with abortion condemned her to die
- 26/10/2012 10:48:53 PM
710 Views
There is no proof that you would accept that a fetus is a child.
- 26/10/2012 11:31:50 PM
696 Views
Fantastic question.
- 26/10/2012 11:43:51 PM
721 Views
No, I would err on the side of caution; have often said as much in just those words.
- 27/10/2012 01:18:19 AM
714 Views
Sure there is; show me a fetus acting indepedently and consciously.
- 27/10/2012 01:15:00 AM
777 Views
Perfect example of media sensationalism
- 26/10/2012 04:13:41 PM
808 Views
I agree with your larger point and am not trying to be argumentative
- 26/10/2012 04:29:23 PM
772 Views
yeah, but what do women know about women's issues? this is man talk time!
- 26/10/2012 05:01:58 PM
754 Views
THAT is the whole problem with his comment.
- 26/10/2012 05:59:40 PM
715 Views
Or it could mean....
- 26/10/2012 11:50:53 PM
750 Views
Having addressed this in response to Legolas in moondogs thread on Mourdock, I will just link that.
- 27/10/2012 01:43:48 AM
755 Views
I agree
- 26/10/2012 07:27:21 PM
789 Views
It's always a slippery slope, talking about what God did and did not intend.
- 27/10/2012 12:06:22 AM
748 Views
There is a logically consistent way; you did not ask for it, so I will be brief.
- 27/10/2012 02:53:09 AM
766 Views
Pregnancy cannot be separated from its cause.
- 26/10/2012 05:51:28 PM
752 Views
God intends everything.
- 27/10/2012 04:40:58 PM
830 Views
"Intends" is a big word.
- 27/10/2012 09:23:13 PM
748 Views
It is sad that this is getting more press than the Bengazi scandal *NM*
- 26/10/2012 05:58:22 PM
390 Views
that's probably because it's more relevant to most people's lives *NM*
- 26/10/2012 06:06:10 PM
401 Views
This entire scandal really speaks to the Calvinist heresy in particular.
- 26/10/2012 07:10:38 PM
718 Views
I was trying REALLY hard to avoid putting it in precisely those terms.
- 26/10/2012 10:12:17 PM
767 Views
- 26/10/2012 10:12:17 PM
767 Views
Well, but really, the fundamental crux of the issue is precisely that.
- 27/10/2012 01:03:26 AM
729 Views
True, but disputing founding articles of faith benefits from tact.
- 27/10/2012 02:02:48 AM
682 Views
Come on, Tom.
- 27/10/2012 03:29:39 AM
730 Views
I believe HE grasps the difference between predestination and determinism well.
- 27/10/2012 09:33:14 PM
771 Views
The comment that sparked this was moronic even to the vast majority of religious conservatives. *NM*
- 26/10/2012 09:42:51 PM
391 Views
Yet its author remains the only Senate nominee for whom Romney is running ads.
- 26/10/2012 10:53:37 PM
716 Views
Is the senator's comment more disgusting to you than the President's vote against the
- 26/10/2012 11:54:55 PM
727 Views
how does one vote against a bill which passed by unanimous consent?
- 27/10/2012 12:11:37 AM
716 Views
As a state senator in 2001 in illinois he was the sole opponent to the aforementioned bill. *NM*
- 27/10/2012 12:14:08 AM
395 Views
[citation needed]
- 27/10/2012 12:15:41 AM
682 Views
It was an illinois state bill. *NM*
- 27/10/2012 12:23:12 AM
401 Views
yes, i finally found *something* regarding a state bill which he did oppose
- 27/10/2012 12:34:40 AM
749 Views
The BAIPA became federal law 2 years before Obamas Senate win; he says he would have voted for it.
- 27/10/2012 02:33:26 AM
710 Views
Once he started taking fire for it he said he would have voted for it? Well that clears that up.
- 27/10/2012 07:09:21 AM
897 Views
He "took fire" for a federal law passed before he was in Congress?
- 27/10/2012 04:08:25 PM
805 Views
amazing
- 28/10/2012 05:04:21 AM
853 Views
Women are certainly encouraged to weigh in, but everyone is entitled to thoughts on the matter
- 28/10/2012 02:22:55 PM
719 Views
