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Isn't this a symptom of evolution? Jeordam Send a noteboard - 12/12/2012 06:12:36 PM
There were no unions, and people were treated horribly, and exploited. Unions are why we don't have child laborers, they're why we have safer working conditions, a 40 hour work week, and much more.

Then, fast forward, there were and are definitely some abuse and corruption in unions. So they get broken up, there is reform, etc.

Anyone who says "unions are all corrupt and must go" is as myopic as someone who claims that there are never any downsides of unions.


Yes, unions had their time & place in history. However, that time has passed. You mentioned that we don't have child laborers, unsafe working conditions and 40 hour work weeks. That wasn't just unions, but the government as well.

We now have labor laws regarding age limits & pay-rates with hourly stipulations. We have OSHA which ensures safe workplace environments. We hardly need unions for those things anymore.

I can't say much regarding the corruption of unions...I just don't have any information regarding that. But what I do see is people who are bad at their job (for whatever reason) who are still employed. That is wrong. In a "right to work" state, what keeps you employeed is doing a good job.

~Jeordam
ex-Admin at wotmania (all things wot & art galleries)
Saving the Princess, Humanity, or the World-Entire since 1985
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Congrats to Michigan - The Newest Right to Work State! Anonymous2000 - 12/12/2012 04:59:29 AM 1545 Views
It's great that they were able to do it. Tom - 12/12/2012 02:45:39 PM 854 Views
I just think it's so... odd... that people don't realize things constantly evolve. beetnemesis - 12/12/2012 05:18:11 PM 796 Views
Isn't this a symptom of evolution? Jeordam - 12/12/2012 06:12:36 PM 835 Views
we also don't need unions to keep people on the job who are bad at it..... moondog - 12/12/2012 06:20:22 PM 825 Views
Unions are all about protecting underperforming workers and the union leadership. Anonymous2000 - 12/12/2012 06:37:41 PM 776 Views
Dude, that's insane. beetnemesis - 12/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 830 Views
That's a bit naive. And instead of evolution, I should have said "ever-changing" beetnemesis - 12/12/2012 06:55:41 PM 720 Views
No, big companies aren't all of a sudden altruistic... Jeordam - 12/12/2012 07:33:16 PM 782 Views
your three examples are of employers demanding workers do more for less moondog - 12/12/2012 07:41:12 PM 868 Views
The good and the bad of unions: Narg - 12/12/2012 10:33:46 PM 951 Views
Double post. Narg - 12/12/2012 10:33:50 PM 1042 Views
Ok...employeers demanding people to do more for less. Jeordam - 13/12/2012 10:56:32 PM 780 Views
the point was that the union did not strike, the workers were prevented from working by management moondog - 13/12/2012 11:25:07 PM 827 Views
Yes, and if there was not a union... beetnemesis - 13/12/2012 04:56:57 AM 798 Views
What are the downsides of Unions? *NM* Narg - 12/12/2012 10:30:17 PM 471 Views
What are the upsides for anyone BUT unions? Cannoli - 13/12/2012 11:58:23 PM 861 Views
the answer to the political influence is hard campaign contribution limits from individuals only moondog - 14/12/2012 12:27:57 AM 750 Views
Cannoli - 19/12/2012 01:33:13 AM 975 Views
I was hoping to hear what a union supporter recognizes as flaws of unions. Narg - 14/12/2012 08:55:46 PM 879 Views
I'll tell you what my perceptions are.... Jeordam - 14/12/2012 09:30:33 PM 921 Views
one point i need to address here: moondog - 14/12/2012 10:09:24 PM 718 Views
Re: I was hoping to hear what a union supporter recognizes as flaws of unions. moondog - 14/12/2012 10:07:39 PM 698 Views
Sorry, didn't realize this was addressed to me. Sure, ok: beetnemesis - 15/12/2012 05:14:57 AM 940 Views
it's great? moondog - 12/12/2012 05:29:00 PM 801 Views
Pissed off people.... Jeordam - 12/12/2012 06:16:49 PM 727 Views
again, what industry will those people looking for work go to in michigan? moondog - 12/12/2012 06:23:47 PM 847 Views
This used to be the case, but no longer. ranagrande - 12/12/2012 06:34:01 PM 699 Views
but that's my point exactly moondog - 12/12/2012 06:40:20 PM 764 Views
Which industry are you refering to? *NM* Isaac - 12/12/2012 06:23:55 PM 396 Views
As a native Michigander, I can tell you it's great. ranagrande - 12/12/2012 06:26:53 PM 734 Views
+1 - This is going to help bring jobs to MI and benefit the auto industry. Anonymous2000 - 12/12/2012 06:33:43 PM 757 Views
unions still aren't the problem in michigan, it's reliance on a single industry as the main employer moondog - 12/12/2012 06:37:44 PM 710 Views
Michigan is one of the fastest growing areas for the tech industry. Michigan is starting to expand. everynametaken - 19/12/2012 03:28:18 AM 906 Views
So let me get this straight. Dannymac - 13/12/2012 03:54:14 PM 803 Views
Yes, it's a good thing, a very, very good thing! Anonymous2000 - 13/12/2012 05:45:43 PM 756 Views
no "right to work" in MO, MT, CO, NM, KY, WV, OH, MA, NY, DE, MN, WI, PA, OR, WA, HI, AK, MD moondog - 13/12/2012 06:56:17 PM 786 Views
Just to play devil's advocate... Tom - 13/12/2012 09:12:02 PM 760 Views
That would be an interesting study... Jeordam - 13/12/2012 09:51:21 PM 747 Views
Re: Just to play devil's advocate... moondog - 13/12/2012 09:57:07 PM 705 Views
I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. Jeordam - 13/12/2012 10:06:34 PM 785 Views
Re: I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. moondog - 13/12/2012 10:18:27 PM 781 Views
How is that wrong? Jeordam - 13/12/2012 10:52:24 PM 727 Views
it's wrong because it ultimately drives down *all* workers' pay, not just the unions moondog - 13/12/2012 11:26:00 PM 748 Views
Your argument is completely fallacious. Tom - 14/12/2012 04:17:58 AM 748 Views
A brilliant argument... Dannymac - 14/12/2012 07:23:53 AM 823 Views
You are assuming that business owners do not value "on the job" experience Orange - 14/12/2012 09:03:35 AM 884 Views
Your hypothetical doesn't stand up in the real world, however. Tom - 14/12/2012 02:46:23 PM 814 Views
the only reason unions are obsolete is because republicans don't want them supporting dems moondog - 14/12/2012 06:43:56 PM 734 Views
Unions being obsolete has almost nothing to do with internal American politics Tom - 14/12/2012 07:10:38 PM 675 Views
i would disagree, at least with respect to the spate of "right to work" laws being pushed through moondog - 14/12/2012 07:32:26 PM 746 Views
Unions aren't going to help rein in CEO pay or corporate profits. Tom - 14/12/2012 10:48:51 PM 732 Views
i'll take you one further.... moondog - 14/12/2012 11:24:26 PM 695 Views
I have suggested that before Tom - 15/12/2012 02:31:07 PM 726 Views
so you did. sorry about that! moondog - 15/12/2012 03:59:16 PM 703 Views
So to work with your thoughts (regarding the Romans) Jeordam - 14/12/2012 06:07:06 PM 729 Views
funny thing about that..... moondog - 14/12/2012 07:25:50 PM 689 Views
And so what if they are all shit jobs with substandard pay! Dannymac - 14/12/2012 07:08:41 AM 753 Views
What do you want me to say? Jeordam - 14/12/2012 05:58:45 PM 850 Views
And so the destruction of the Middle Class continues. *NM* Dannymac - 13/12/2012 03:43:36 PM 380 Views
The unions already destroyed the middle class..... Anonymous2000 - 13/12/2012 05:46:56 PM 768 Views
Do you really not understand why unions existed in the first place? Dannymac - 14/12/2012 06:55:27 AM 696 Views
Why they first existed is not in issue. It is if they STILL serve a useful or detrimental purpose. HyogaRott - 14/12/2012 03:00:48 PM 759 Views
Yeah, moron! What is wrong with you, that you do not blindly accept his underlying premise? Cannoli - 19/12/2012 01:35:37 AM 1084 Views
Damn, I agree with Anonymous2000. callandor1000 - 14/12/2012 04:29:36 AM 791 Views
This must be a trying time for you. Dannymac - 14/12/2012 07:06:56 AM 746 Views
Callandor sees the light, perhaps it's time for you as well! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 14/12/2012 02:08:47 PM 344 Views
HOW they are doing it..is bullshit Amyrlin - 13/12/2012 06:33:09 PM 904 Views
How? Residents of MI elected a Republican legislature and Governor..... Anonymous2000 - 13/12/2012 09:25:43 PM 734 Views
You have the right to work, not the right to vote in an election as you see fit and keep your job. *NM* heartbreak - 15/12/2012 03:23:13 AM 433 Views
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