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your three examples are of employers demanding workers do more for less moondog Send a noteboard - 12/12/2012 07:41:12 PM
Let's see...the latest union things I've seen are NFL officials wanting more money. And before that it was the NFL players wanting more money. And right now its about the NHL players wanting more money. Do they want greater safety stuff too? Sure. But the sticking point is the money.


NFL officials? lockout
NFL players? lockout
NHL players? lockout

in each example, it was the owners (read: employers) demanding that they not only not have to pay the players/employees the market rate for their jobs, but that the players take pay cuts *and* do more for those pay cuts than they currently do now. in each instance, it was the owners who told the players (or refs) they could not do their jobs until they agreed to these demands. the players did not come forward and refuse to play, the refs did not refuse to work, it was the owners who prevented them from working. do not confuse the issues in your attempt to prove unions do no good.
"The RIAA has shown a certain disregard for the creative people of the industry in their eagerness to protect the revenues of the record companies." -- Frank Zappa

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
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Congrats to Michigan - The Newest Right to Work State! Anonymous2000 - 12/12/2012 04:59:29 AM 1462 Views
It's great that they were able to do it. Tom - 12/12/2012 02:45:39 PM 788 Views
I just think it's so... odd... that people don't realize things constantly evolve. beetnemesis - 12/12/2012 05:18:11 PM 737 Views
Isn't this a symptom of evolution? Jeordam - 12/12/2012 06:12:36 PM 774 Views
we also don't need unions to keep people on the job who are bad at it..... moondog - 12/12/2012 06:20:22 PM 767 Views
Unions are all about protecting underperforming workers and the union leadership. Anonymous2000 - 12/12/2012 06:37:41 PM 715 Views
Dude, that's insane. beetnemesis - 12/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 765 Views
That's a bit naive. And instead of evolution, I should have said "ever-changing" beetnemesis - 12/12/2012 06:55:41 PM 657 Views
No, big companies aren't all of a sudden altruistic... Jeordam - 12/12/2012 07:33:16 PM 714 Views
your three examples are of employers demanding workers do more for less moondog - 12/12/2012 07:41:12 PM 810 Views
The good and the bad of unions: Narg - 12/12/2012 10:33:46 PM 894 Views
Double post. Narg - 12/12/2012 10:33:50 PM 973 Views
Ok...employeers demanding people to do more for less. Jeordam - 13/12/2012 10:56:32 PM 716 Views
the point was that the union did not strike, the workers were prevented from working by management moondog - 13/12/2012 11:25:07 PM 741 Views
Yes, and if there was not a union... beetnemesis - 13/12/2012 04:56:57 AM 726 Views
What are the downsides of Unions? *NM* Narg - 12/12/2012 10:30:17 PM 440 Views
What are the upsides for anyone BUT unions? Cannoli - 13/12/2012 11:58:23 PM 802 Views
the answer to the political influence is hard campaign contribution limits from individuals only moondog - 14/12/2012 12:27:57 AM 690 Views
Cannoli - 19/12/2012 01:33:13 AM 914 Views
I was hoping to hear what a union supporter recognizes as flaws of unions. Narg - 14/12/2012 08:55:46 PM 818 Views
I'll tell you what my perceptions are.... Jeordam - 14/12/2012 09:30:33 PM 843 Views
one point i need to address here: moondog - 14/12/2012 10:09:24 PM 655 Views
Re: I was hoping to hear what a union supporter recognizes as flaws of unions. moondog - 14/12/2012 10:07:39 PM 609 Views
Sorry, didn't realize this was addressed to me. Sure, ok: beetnemesis - 15/12/2012 05:14:57 AM 881 Views
it's great? moondog - 12/12/2012 05:29:00 PM 742 Views
Pissed off people.... Jeordam - 12/12/2012 06:16:49 PM 660 Views
again, what industry will those people looking for work go to in michigan? moondog - 12/12/2012 06:23:47 PM 782 Views
This used to be the case, but no longer. ranagrande - 12/12/2012 06:34:01 PM 640 Views
but that's my point exactly moondog - 12/12/2012 06:40:20 PM 706 Views
Which industry are you refering to? *NM* Isaac - 12/12/2012 06:23:55 PM 369 Views
As a native Michigander, I can tell you it's great. ranagrande - 12/12/2012 06:26:53 PM 679 Views
+1 - This is going to help bring jobs to MI and benefit the auto industry. Anonymous2000 - 12/12/2012 06:33:43 PM 674 Views
unions still aren't the problem in michigan, it's reliance on a single industry as the main employer moondog - 12/12/2012 06:37:44 PM 654 Views
Michigan is one of the fastest growing areas for the tech industry. Michigan is starting to expand. everynametaken - 19/12/2012 03:28:18 AM 839 Views
So let me get this straight. Dannymac - 13/12/2012 03:54:14 PM 746 Views
Yes, it's a good thing, a very, very good thing! Anonymous2000 - 13/12/2012 05:45:43 PM 693 Views
no "right to work" in MO, MT, CO, NM, KY, WV, OH, MA, NY, DE, MN, WI, PA, OR, WA, HI, AK, MD moondog - 13/12/2012 06:56:17 PM 724 Views
Just to play devil's advocate... Tom - 13/12/2012 09:12:02 PM 694 Views
That would be an interesting study... Jeordam - 13/12/2012 09:51:21 PM 678 Views
Re: Just to play devil's advocate... moondog - 13/12/2012 09:57:07 PM 635 Views
I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. Jeordam - 13/12/2012 10:06:34 PM 724 Views
Re: I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. moondog - 13/12/2012 10:18:27 PM 699 Views
How is that wrong? Jeordam - 13/12/2012 10:52:24 PM 660 Views
it's wrong because it ultimately drives down *all* workers' pay, not just the unions moondog - 13/12/2012 11:26:00 PM 695 Views
Your argument is completely fallacious. Tom - 14/12/2012 04:17:58 AM 674 Views
A brilliant argument... Dannymac - 14/12/2012 07:23:53 AM 757 Views
You are assuming that business owners do not value "on the job" experience Orange - 14/12/2012 09:03:35 AM 801 Views
Your hypothetical doesn't stand up in the real world, however. Tom - 14/12/2012 02:46:23 PM 731 Views
the only reason unions are obsolete is because republicans don't want them supporting dems moondog - 14/12/2012 06:43:56 PM 671 Views
Unions being obsolete has almost nothing to do with internal American politics Tom - 14/12/2012 07:10:38 PM 611 Views
i would disagree, at least with respect to the spate of "right to work" laws being pushed through moondog - 14/12/2012 07:32:26 PM 684 Views
Unions aren't going to help rein in CEO pay or corporate profits. Tom - 14/12/2012 10:48:51 PM 674 Views
i'll take you one further.... moondog - 14/12/2012 11:24:26 PM 614 Views
I have suggested that before Tom - 15/12/2012 02:31:07 PM 660 Views
so you did. sorry about that! moondog - 15/12/2012 03:59:16 PM 637 Views
So to work with your thoughts (regarding the Romans) Jeordam - 14/12/2012 06:07:06 PM 667 Views
funny thing about that..... moondog - 14/12/2012 07:25:50 PM 604 Views
And so what if they are all shit jobs with substandard pay! Dannymac - 14/12/2012 07:08:41 AM 693 Views
What do you want me to say? Jeordam - 14/12/2012 05:58:45 PM 794 Views
And so the destruction of the Middle Class continues. *NM* Dannymac - 13/12/2012 03:43:36 PM 353 Views
The unions already destroyed the middle class..... Anonymous2000 - 13/12/2012 05:46:56 PM 709 Views
Do you really not understand why unions existed in the first place? Dannymac - 14/12/2012 06:55:27 AM 638 Views
Why they first existed is not in issue. It is if they STILL serve a useful or detrimental purpose. HyogaRott - 14/12/2012 03:00:48 PM 695 Views
Yeah, moron! What is wrong with you, that you do not blindly accept his underlying premise? Cannoli - 19/12/2012 01:35:37 AM 1020 Views
Damn, I agree with Anonymous2000. callandor1000 - 14/12/2012 04:29:36 AM 733 Views
This must be a trying time for you. Dannymac - 14/12/2012 07:06:56 AM 684 Views
Callandor sees the light, perhaps it's time for you as well! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 14/12/2012 02:08:47 PM 319 Views
HOW they are doing it..is bullshit Amyrlin - 13/12/2012 06:33:09 PM 830 Views
How? Residents of MI elected a Republican legislature and Governor..... Anonymous2000 - 13/12/2012 09:25:43 PM 655 Views
You have the right to work, not the right to vote in an election as you see fit and keep your job. *NM* heartbreak - 15/12/2012 03:23:13 AM 408 Views
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