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Just to play devil's advocate... Tom Send a noteboard - 13/12/2012 09:12:02 PM
A lot of those states have low unionization percentages. Michigan is at 17% or so, and I think only New York has a higher percentage in the lower 48 states (at 21%). Of course, in New York this is mostly in construction and trades because the Mafia runs a great deal of real estate development, and New York's unemployment rate is more a function of the fact that Wall Street is doing well.

However, look at Colorado, which has only 6% or so participation in unions. The lack of "right to work" provisions doesn't affect Colorado as much.

It's very clear that Michigan's unions hurt it. America still makes cars, but Michigan makes a lot fewer of them than it did back in the 1970s, for example. There is a direct correlation between the unions and the destruction of Michigan's automotive industry.

The argument that factory workers make less without unions is true, but in most cases there is little to no difference after union dues are subtracted. As a result, workers take home roughly the same amount of money but the employer doesn't have to support a union.

Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Congrats to Michigan - The Newest Right to Work State! - 12/12/2012 04:59:29 AM 1569 Views
It's great that they were able to do it. - 12/12/2012 02:45:39 PM 877 Views
I just think it's so... odd... that people don't realize things constantly evolve. - 12/12/2012 05:18:11 PM 817 Views
Isn't this a symptom of evolution? - 12/12/2012 06:12:36 PM 858 Views
we also don't need unions to keep people on the job who are bad at it..... - 12/12/2012 06:20:22 PM 844 Views
Unions are all about protecting underperforming workers and the union leadership. - 12/12/2012 06:37:41 PM 798 Views
Dude, that's insane. - 12/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 855 Views
That's a bit naive. And instead of evolution, I should have said "ever-changing" - 12/12/2012 06:55:41 PM 741 Views
No, big companies aren't all of a sudden altruistic... - 12/12/2012 07:33:16 PM 801 Views
your three examples are of employers demanding workers do more for less - 12/12/2012 07:41:12 PM 890 Views
The good and the bad of unions: - 12/12/2012 10:33:46 PM 975 Views
Double post. - 12/12/2012 10:33:50 PM 1071 Views
Yes, and if there was not a union... - 13/12/2012 04:56:57 AM 819 Views
What are the downsides of Unions? *NM* - 12/12/2012 10:30:17 PM 481 Views
What are the upsides for anyone BUT unions? - 13/12/2012 11:58:23 PM 880 Views
the answer to the political influence is hard campaign contribution limits from individuals only - 14/12/2012 12:27:57 AM 776 Views
- 19/12/2012 01:33:13 AM 997 Views
I was hoping to hear what a union supporter recognizes as flaws of unions. - 14/12/2012 08:55:46 PM 901 Views
I'll tell you what my perceptions are.... - 14/12/2012 09:30:33 PM 944 Views
one point i need to address here: - 14/12/2012 10:09:24 PM 741 Views
Sorry, didn't realize this was addressed to me. Sure, ok: - 15/12/2012 05:14:57 AM 964 Views
it's great? - 12/12/2012 05:29:00 PM 823 Views
Pissed off people.... - 12/12/2012 06:16:49 PM 752 Views
again, what industry will those people looking for work go to in michigan? - 12/12/2012 06:23:47 PM 868 Views
This used to be the case, but no longer. - 12/12/2012 06:34:01 PM 721 Views
but that's my point exactly - 12/12/2012 06:40:20 PM 788 Views
Which industry are you refering to? *NM* - 12/12/2012 06:23:55 PM 405 Views
As a native Michigander, I can tell you it's great. - 12/12/2012 06:26:53 PM 754 Views
+1 - This is going to help bring jobs to MI and benefit the auto industry. - 12/12/2012 06:33:43 PM 779 Views
So let me get this straight. - 13/12/2012 03:54:14 PM 823 Views
Yes, it's a good thing, a very, very good thing! - 13/12/2012 05:45:43 PM 783 Views
no "right to work" in MO, MT, CO, NM, KY, WV, OH, MA, NY, DE, MN, WI, PA, OR, WA, HI, AK, MD - 13/12/2012 06:56:17 PM 814 Views
Just to play devil's advocate... - 13/12/2012 09:12:02 PM 786 Views
That would be an interesting study... - 13/12/2012 09:51:21 PM 774 Views
Re: Just to play devil's advocate... - 13/12/2012 09:57:07 PM 731 Views
I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. - 13/12/2012 10:06:34 PM 811 Views
Re: I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. - 13/12/2012 10:18:27 PM 803 Views
How is that wrong? - 13/12/2012 10:52:24 PM 747 Views
it's wrong because it ultimately drives down *all* workers' pay, not just the unions - 13/12/2012 11:26:00 PM 771 Views
Your argument is completely fallacious. - 14/12/2012 04:17:58 AM 777 Views
A brilliant argument... - 14/12/2012 07:23:53 AM 845 Views
the only reason unions are obsolete is because republicans don't want them supporting dems - 14/12/2012 06:43:56 PM 755 Views
Unions being obsolete has almost nothing to do with internal American politics - 14/12/2012 07:10:38 PM 698 Views
i would disagree, at least with respect to the spate of "right to work" laws being pushed through - 14/12/2012 07:32:26 PM 770 Views
Unions aren't going to help rein in CEO pay or corporate profits. - 14/12/2012 10:48:51 PM 751 Views
i'll take you one further.... - 14/12/2012 11:24:26 PM 718 Views
I have suggested that before - 15/12/2012 02:31:07 PM 750 Views
so you did. sorry about that! - 15/12/2012 03:59:16 PM 724 Views
So to work with your thoughts (regarding the Romans) - 14/12/2012 06:07:06 PM 752 Views
funny thing about that..... - 14/12/2012 07:25:50 PM 713 Views
And so what if they are all shit jobs with substandard pay! - 14/12/2012 07:08:41 AM 780 Views
What do you want me to say? - 14/12/2012 05:58:45 PM 873 Views
And so the destruction of the Middle Class continues. *NM* - 13/12/2012 03:43:36 PM 389 Views
Damn, I agree with Anonymous2000. - 14/12/2012 04:29:36 AM 812 Views
This must be a trying time for you. - 14/12/2012 07:06:56 AM 765 Views
Callandor sees the light, perhaps it's time for you as well! *NM* - 14/12/2012 02:08:47 PM 355 Views
HOW they are doing it..is bullshit - 13/12/2012 06:33:09 PM 930 Views
How? Residents of MI elected a Republican legislature and Governor..... - 13/12/2012 09:25:43 PM 765 Views

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