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except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't. moondog Send a noteboard - 23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM
And gun homicides have made it over 10k by a hair from 2005-2007 and otherwise been under 10k for my other dataset, which is shorter so might be higher pre-1998, car deaths were so I'll skip those pre-1998 50k+ in favor of the low 40's from 1998 on. I don't think suicide is relevant to gun control, though shooting accidents may be if you want to dredge that up and add it to the 10k, but otherwise its sitting at 40+ to >10k, not 30-30. Take that as an FYI if you didn't know and if you did with a touch of opprobrium, unless you feel suicide by gun is relevant to gun control discussions. If so, I've never heard a serious, strong case for its inclusion and if you've got one go ahead but I don't think the average American who isn't already strongly for gun control will be swayed by the suicide rate even if it exceeded vehicle fatalities. It's just a separate animal.

As to which is easier, getting a car or getting a gun, gun. It's a constitutionally protected right, and operating a motor vehicle on a public road isn't, same as carrying a gun into a courthouse or police station or other public building isn't. Maybe carrying a gun on a public road shouldn't be except that a strong case can be made that transporting a firearm poses no increased risk to others using that road, hence there's numerous reasons to permit it and none to ban it.


i'm not going to pretend that meaningful gun control is going to prevent suicide, but it will certainly bring down the number of gun related deaths, so i included that number in my response. however, while there is a constitutionally protected right to bear arms, there is also a clause which says "a well regulated militia" that is consistently and constantly relegated to invisibility every time we have this discussion.

sure, you have the right to actually own guns, but if we are going to go to the level of justifying concealed carry with the second amendment, then that concealed carry should extend everywhere, including government buildings. that fact that it does not shows that there are still plenty of areas where we can legislate where and how you are able to exercise your rights without infringing on the right to own guns in the first place. as i said before, i favor the australian model, but in a pinch i would require a renewable training program (on the order of every 4-8 years like a driver's license) and gun registration if you want to legally own a gun.

at the heart of the matter, we need more people trained in gun use and tougher punishment for failing to follow the law. instead we get random proliferation of guns without the responsibility. the murder of children should not be our price to protect the 2nd amendment.
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the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics - 22/12/2012 04:40:26 PM 1160 Views
I do not see why calling for armed cops at schools is an unreasonable response. - 22/12/2012 04:53:06 PM 676 Views
I can think of two reasons off the top of my head - 22/12/2012 05:38:19 PM 715 Views
OK... - 22/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 677 Views
If someone is shooting at you having a gun to shoot back seems like a good idea - 26/12/2012 06:10:07 PM 527 Views
The effectiveness issue aside - 22/12/2012 06:13:30 PM 580 Views
Re: The effectiveness issue aside - 22/12/2012 06:59:36 PM 666 Views
If you think it would solve the debate then probably - 22/12/2012 07:09:42 PM 623 Views
Nothing will ever truly end the debate, but we can greatly reduce or end its justification. - 22/12/2012 08:03:39 PM 590 Views
If it's shown to work - 23/12/2012 12:25:38 AM 667 Views
columbine had two armed guards on the day of the shooting. they were both immediately fired upon... - 23/12/2012 12:49:30 AM 557 Views
I have never seen any mention of them among the injured or dead (or at all.) - 23/12/2012 01:09:38 AM 706 Views
A fuller account of Gardner - 23/12/2012 10:27:24 AM 760 Views
Nice link. - 23/12/2012 02:27:30 PM 563 Views
Re: Nice link. - 23/12/2012 03:15:24 PM 538 Views
at last count, over 99,000 schools in the US - 23/12/2012 12:45:30 AM 616 Views
What is public safety worth to you? - 23/12/2012 12:54:04 AM 542 Views
it's not entirely a matter of cost, although that factors into it. - 23/12/2012 01:01:50 AM 474 Views
There are many cases where armed cops ended mass shootings. - 23/12/2012 01:28:25 AM 489 Views
there are none where an armed guard placed there *before* the shooting had any effect - 23/12/2012 01:36:42 AM 601 Views
Kind of a Catch-22; if they PREVENT shootings, shootings can only occur in their absence. - 23/12/2012 01:52:03 AM 675 Views
ok, here is my last word on the subject - 23/12/2012 02:06:49 AM 599 Views
9 people injured vs. 20 people dead. - 23/12/2012 02:34:00 AM 530 Views
it is still "more guns makes us safer" which has yet to prevent a single massacre in this country - 23/12/2012 02:41:56 PM 658 Views
Peter Odighizuwa comes to mind, that's also horrible logic - 23/12/2012 08:27:46 PM 540 Views
[citation needed] - 25/12/2012 04:54:14 PM 536 Views
Fair enough - 25/12/2012 09:06:43 PM 877 Views
It doesn't have to be a full time gaurd standing looking dangerous. - 26/12/2012 06:12:14 PM 631 Views
People die from all sort of causes - 22/12/2012 07:27:53 PM 597 Views
Cars require training, certification and licensing, too; why should guns not? - 22/12/2012 08:25:43 PM 735 Views
Do bombs require certification? - 22/12/2012 09:21:25 PM 822 Views
i say this with all due respect -- eat a bag of dicks - 23/12/2012 01:04:08 AM 620 Views
That was pretty damn respectful under the circumstances. - 23/12/2012 01:10:04 AM 576 Views
The lack of intellect displayed here is to be expected - 23/12/2012 04:01:32 AM 586 Views
so according to you we should just make life illegal since everyone is going to die from something.. - 23/12/2012 07:25:05 AM 519 Views
Obviously you didn't put pay attention - 23/12/2012 01:40:17 PM 536 Views
no, you said "fuck it because people die anyway". there is a big difference - 23/12/2012 02:46:46 PM 528 Views
As usual, you are wrong on so many fronts... - 27/12/2012 10:39:04 PM 843 Views
Dicks and stones - 23/12/2012 03:54:25 AM 723 Views
FYI - I gave moondog a 30-day time-out via the ignore function. - 23/12/2012 05:48:13 AM 475 Views
FYI -- you didn't post to this board for 30+ days - 23/12/2012 07:21:44 AM 482 Views
cars and guns kill roughly the same number of people every year -- around 30,000 give or take - 23/12/2012 01:02:44 AM 565 Views
Every year is iffy there, it dropped off the last two, was 40k-50k plus for cars since 1962 - 23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM 532 Views
except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't. - 23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM 562 Views
Double *NM* - 23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM 311 Views
Hat trick, never got that before *NM* - 23/12/2012 11:56:08 AM 272 Views
I'm not sure it's about guns. - 23/12/2012 06:08:50 PM 546 Views

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