except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't.
moondog Send a noteboard - 23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM
And gun homicides have made it over 10k by a hair from 2005-2007 and otherwise been under 10k for my other dataset, which is shorter so might be higher pre-1998, car deaths were so I'll skip those pre-1998 50k+ in favor of the low 40's from 1998 on. I don't think suicide is relevant to gun control, though shooting accidents may be if you want to dredge that up and add it to the 10k, but otherwise its sitting at 40+ to >10k, not 30-30. Take that as an FYI if you didn't know and if you did with a touch of opprobrium, unless you feel suicide by gun is relevant to gun control discussions. If so, I've never heard a serious, strong case for its inclusion and if you've got one go ahead but I don't think the average American who isn't already strongly for gun control will be swayed by the suicide rate even if it exceeded vehicle fatalities. It's just a separate animal.
As to which is easier, getting a car or getting a gun, gun. It's a constitutionally protected right, and operating a motor vehicle on a public road isn't, same as carrying a gun into a courthouse or police station or other public building isn't. Maybe carrying a gun on a public road shouldn't be except that a strong case can be made that transporting a firearm poses no increased risk to others using that road, hence there's numerous reasons to permit it and none to ban it.
As to which is easier, getting a car or getting a gun, gun. It's a constitutionally protected right, and operating a motor vehicle on a public road isn't, same as carrying a gun into a courthouse or police station or other public building isn't. Maybe carrying a gun on a public road shouldn't be except that a strong case can be made that transporting a firearm poses no increased risk to others using that road, hence there's numerous reasons to permit it and none to ban it.
i'm not going to pretend that meaningful gun control is going to prevent suicide, but it will certainly bring down the number of gun related deaths, so i included that number in my response. however, while there is a constitutionally protected right to bear arms, there is also a clause which says "a well regulated militia" that is consistently and constantly relegated to invisibility every time we have this discussion.
sure, you have the right to actually own guns, but if we are going to go to the level of justifying concealed carry with the second amendment, then that concealed carry should extend everywhere, including government buildings. that fact that it does not shows that there are still plenty of areas where we can legislate where and how you are able to exercise your rights without infringing on the right to own guns in the first place. as i said before, i favor the australian model, but in a pinch i would require a renewable training program (on the order of every 4-8 years like a driver's license) and gun registration if you want to legally own a gun.
at the heart of the matter, we need more people trained in gun use and tougher punishment for failing to follow the law. instead we get random proliferation of guns without the responsibility. the murder of children should not be our price to protect the 2nd amendment.
"The RIAA has shown a certain disregard for the creative people of the industry in their eagerness to protect the revenues of the record companies." -- Frank Zappa
"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics
- 22/12/2012 04:40:26 PM
1517 Views
I do not see why calling for armed cops at schools is an unreasonable response.
- 22/12/2012 04:53:06 PM
1041 Views
I can think of two reasons off the top of my head
- 22/12/2012 05:38:19 PM
1044 Views
If the schools that the children of our elected representatives attend are gaurded, so should mine.
- 26/12/2012 03:00:35 PM
842 Views
If someone is shooting at you having a gun to shoot back seems like a good idea
- 26/12/2012 06:10:07 PM
875 Views
The effectiveness issue aside
- 22/12/2012 06:13:30 PM
919 Views
Re: The effectiveness issue aside
- 22/12/2012 06:59:36 PM
995 Views
If you think it would solve the debate then probably
- 22/12/2012 07:09:42 PM
983 Views
Nothing will ever truly end the debate, but we can greatly reduce or end its justification.
- 22/12/2012 08:03:39 PM
938 Views
If it's shown to work
- 23/12/2012 12:25:38 AM
1033 Views
Of the many school shootings in recent years, I am aware of none where armed cops were present.
- 23/12/2012 12:47:32 AM
959 Views
columbine had two armed guards on the day of the shooting. they were both immediately fired upon...
- 23/12/2012 12:49:30 AM
893 Views
I have never seen any mention of them among the injured or dead (or at all.)
- 23/12/2012 01:09:38 AM
1033 Views
you should try harder
- 23/12/2012 01:15:34 AM
1075 Views
"a motorcycle patrolman who was near the school writing a speeding ticket" is not stationed there.
- 23/12/2012 01:34:50 AM
1007 Views
he still didn't stop the shooting, whether he was there before or after it started
- 23/12/2012 01:49:24 AM
1014 Views
No kidding; how could he stop the shooting before it started if he was not there?
- 23/12/2012 02:16:59 AM
860 Views
A fuller account of Gardner
- 23/12/2012 10:27:24 AM
1119 Views
Nice link.
- 23/12/2012 02:27:30 PM
876 Views
Re: Nice link.
- 23/12/2012 03:15:24 PM
895 Views
Inexplicably, Ft. Hood was a gun free zone (guess no one told the shooter.)
- 26/12/2012 06:12:42 PM
903 Views
Re: Nice link.
- 23/12/2012 04:21:27 PM
884 Views
Gardner:If you’re going to put a police officer in a school, make sure his focus stays on the school
- 26/12/2012 06:40:41 PM
948 Views
The children are what matter, not the school. Surely this isn't something you disagree on?
- 29/12/2012 02:15:12 PM
971 Views
As usual Moondog, you are missing a BUNCH of facts on this one (links inside)
- 26/12/2012 07:51:29 PM
1012 Views
at last count, over 99,000 schools in the US
- 23/12/2012 12:45:30 AM
965 Views
What is public safety worth to you?
- 23/12/2012 12:54:04 AM
896 Views
it's not entirely a matter of cost, although that factors into it.
- 23/12/2012 01:01:50 AM
810 Views
There are many cases where armed cops ended mass shootings.
- 23/12/2012 01:28:25 AM
831 Views
there are none where an armed guard placed there *before* the shooting had any effect
- 23/12/2012 01:36:42 AM
967 Views
Kind of a Catch-22; if they PREVENT shootings, shootings can only occur in their absence.
- 23/12/2012 01:52:03 AM
1005 Views
ok, here is my last word on the subject
- 23/12/2012 02:06:49 AM
944 Views
9 people injured vs. 20 people dead.
- 23/12/2012 02:34:00 AM
880 Views
it is still "more guns makes us safer" which has yet to prevent a single massacre in this country
- 23/12/2012 02:41:56 PM
976 Views
Peter Odighizuwa comes to mind, that's also horrible logic
- 23/12/2012 08:27:46 PM
882 Views
Care to prove that negative? The burden to do so is on you as the person who made the assertion.
- 26/12/2012 06:47:07 PM
853 Views
It doesn't have to be a full time gaurd standing looking dangerous.
- 26/12/2012 06:12:14 PM
962 Views
Re: the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics
- 22/12/2012 06:36:32 PM
1143 Views
I believe it is fairly common in junior and high schools today, but not elementary schools.
- 22/12/2012 07:12:32 PM
884 Views
This entire post is completely irrelevant.
- 22/12/2012 07:27:45 PM
984 Views
Those who want univeral prohibition/access are equally fringe minorities.
- 22/12/2012 08:18:00 PM
934 Views
there is no Left or Right on this issue, there is only Sane and Insane
- 23/12/2012 12:59:08 AM
1001 Views
also: it's insulting to tell parents their kids would be alive if only more guns were around
- 23/12/2012 01:30:53 AM
902 Views
People die from all sort of causes
- 22/12/2012 07:27:53 PM
953 Views
Cars require training, certification and licensing, too; why should guns not?
- 22/12/2012 08:25:43 PM
1070 Views
Do bombs require certification?
- 22/12/2012 09:21:25 PM
1179 Views
No, they are pretty much illegal for the general public under all conditions.
- 22/12/2012 09:35:35 PM
862 Views
i say this with all due respect -- eat a bag of dicks
- 23/12/2012 01:04:08 AM
969 Views
That was pretty damn respectful under the circumstances.
- 23/12/2012 01:10:04 AM
898 Views
The lack of intellect displayed here is to be expected
- 23/12/2012 04:01:32 AM
935 Views
so according to you we should just make life illegal since everyone is going to die from something..
- 23/12/2012 07:25:05 AM
861 Views
Obviously you didn't put pay attention
- 23/12/2012 01:40:17 PM
896 Views
no, you said "fuck it because people die anyway". there is a big difference
- 23/12/2012 02:46:46 PM
846 Views
Dicks and stones
- 23/12/2012 03:54:25 AM
1097 Views
cars and guns kill roughly the same number of people every year -- around 30,000 give or take
- 23/12/2012 01:02:44 AM
909 Views
But over half of gun deaths are suicide.....so cars are much more dangerous to society. *NM*
- 23/12/2012 05:35:45 AM
397 Views
Every year is iffy there, it dropped off the last two, was 40k-50k plus for cars since 1962
- 23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM
888 Views
except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't.
- 23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM
926 Views
Guns are for killing, cars are for transport, cars aren't any safer now against use for homicide
- 23/12/2012 08:22:13 PM
865 Views
but if we are trying to minimize the number of deaths, then more MUST be done for gun laws
- 24/12/2012 03:33:31 AM
830 Views
More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
- 24/12/2012 04:27:04 AM
971 Views
Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
- 25/12/2012 04:49:54 PM
910 Views
Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
- 25/12/2012 08:41:53 PM
897 Views
Here is some interesting data.....knives are as dangerous as "non-handguns"
- 23/12/2012 05:45:08 AM
957 Views
I hope you don't mind me taking this opportunity to plug my new book, "How to Cook with Guns" *NM*
- 23/12/2012 03:04:06 PM
497 Views
there was a school mass stabbing in china the same day as sandy hook
- 23/12/2012 03:18:00 PM
903 Views
I am equally happy that the criminal was incompetant, but that does not diminish their lethality
- 27/12/2012 10:45:33 PM
995 Views
I'm not sure it's about guns.
- 23/12/2012 06:08:50 PM
882 Views
IMO it is about the media attention focuised on the perpetrator. Their name becomes history. *NM*
- 27/12/2012 10:47:15 PM
457 Views
