More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
Isaac Send a noteboard - 24/12/2012 04:27:04 AM
Vehicle deaths are mostly accidental, a gun is designed to kill things, especially people. You can kill someone with a car quite easily, just a pain for premeditated murder of an individual. No law or safety feature on a car has made them one bit safer in regards to specifically trying to kill someone with one.
car accidents used to kill a lot more people, as your research found. then they required people to wear seat belts at all times and the deaths were limited to specific types of accidents. then they required air bags in cars and certain other specific types of accidents began to be survivable. then they required that air bags not kill people after deployment, and people stopped suffocating after accidents. now we have kid car seats, side curtain air bags and a host of other features that are standard now instead of only found on volvo or mercedes.
I'm very leery of saying seatbelt laws are principally responsible, odds are superior emergency rooms and EMTs get the lionshare, but I support those laws and believe them valuable. I wantr to be be very careful here though crediting that to regulation, I think it did help but I don't think it matches either education or improved tech in repsonsibility for those saved lives.
the point is, we have very clear examples of laws which prevent massacres (australia), and very clear examples of laws which severely minimize massacre deaths (canada). it's just a matter of our legislators having the backbone to pass something that fits within the 2nd amendment framework that does not infringe on the right to own, but is provably effective at limiting the damage of the next rampage. i understand that some versions of the AR-15 can not easily be modified to accept the larger ammo clip. i don't see why similar measures can't be enacted here, except that the NRA thinks more guns with bigger ammo clips are somehow necessary so they fight against any and all sensible restrictions
I think we ran the numbers last massacre and found that per capita the US did not significantly exceed spree killing deaths compared to gun control countries. As for clips, pox on the NRA and the uneducated anti-gun sorts, I'm a piss poor machinist and I could spew you out a compatible casket mag for any gun model. These kind of regs you're thinking of for magazine capacity require we ignore the internet as a source of info, extreme human stupidity, and reality. Magazines are literally just boxes for ammo. I don't care if we lower magazine capacity much, but merely because its a handwave, anyone who has told you otherwise is a fool or a liar or both. For belted ammo it literally is just a sack or box, for fed ammo someone needs to master the idea of a spring, nothing more, a magazine makes a toaster look complex.
Concealed isn't really a big factor in these spree killings, from a pragmatic perspective a concealed weapon allows someone to carry a gun without meeting instant fear or dislike form a large chunk of the population, gives them a tactical edge if attacked, and represents a global deterrence similar to how LoJack does. In any event, you know my opinion, if self-defense isn't grounds to buy a gun nothing is. As to licensing and registration, frankly I don't think any of the recent spree killings would have been effected. Training is a different story, the government has a clearly defined interest in seeing minimal accidental deaths, low crime, and ensuring a pool of persons able to defend the country. Therefore it clearly has the right to offer gun training at tax payer expense. Not mandatory training, though the legal right to draft people implies yes, but certainly we could begin training kids as the boy scouts do. I'm sure most of them would enjoy it and national defense readiness is sufficient grounds for federal subsidy to schools or groups like the BSA to offer it as an alternative gym/sports/civics class. No reason it has to stop at 18, I won't argue people have a duty to know how to shoot (I do, incidentally) but the gov't has a clear national defense reason to encourage large numbers of well-trained people and guns and ammo aren't budget busters, especially if its only voluntary. We could give out merit badges, make people more likely to attend.
That seems a good idea to me, gets that training in there, no need for mandatory when voluntary would achieve near identical results. Besides, even if you prefer mandatory the voluntary option makes a good interregnum.
I'm a bit irked you don't really comment on the above.
there are quite a few legitimate reasons to own a gun that "self defense" is not really a reasonable expectation. you can easily defend yourself and/or your property with a sword, a baseball bat, a tire iron, a 2x4, the list goes on and on. i used to carry an 18" long 1/2" ratchet extension with a 3/4" deep socket in my truck and i never had to use it once. if guns are heavily regulated and gun owners can be liable for their guns being used in a crime, there is less incentive to have a gun for protection. however, you could be on a licensed competitive pistol team, you could be an actual hunter, you could be in a lot of things for which it makes sense to own a gun without having to justify its existence with a paranoid fantasy that only a gun can protect you and yours.
I don't see a need for guns except for self-defense, games and hunting -same difference - might have their value but I've never carried a gun without expectation to need to kill someone with it. And I can say that paranoia bit is absolute hogwash, my friend, utter absurdity, hollywood nonsense, take your pick. A gun is better than a knife or a cell phone call to 911 if you're threatened, if it weren't, we wouldn't arm soldiers with them. That was all just talking points and silly ones to relay at me, show some respect, I'm not an idiot. Of course a gun isn't the only way to protect yourself, but its one of the best, and the others are equally lethal.
that being said, if everyone who owned a gun was required by whatever justification necessary to take gun safety and training courses, i am pretty sure a lot of the problems surrounding having so many guns in circulation could be minimized. at a bare minimum, it should be relatively difficult to get a gun, and it should be as heavily regulated as the auto industry if not more so.
So knowing no realistic change in gun laws is on the horizon, pragmatism says maximize training to maximize safety, yes?
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics
- 22/12/2012 04:40:26 PM
1281 Views
I do not see why calling for armed cops at schools is an unreasonable response.
- 22/12/2012 04:53:06 PM
802 Views
I can think of two reasons off the top of my head
- 22/12/2012 05:38:19 PM
830 Views
If the schools that the children of our elected representatives attend are gaurded, so should mine.
- 26/12/2012 03:00:35 PM
620 Views
If someone is shooting at you having a gun to shoot back seems like a good idea
- 26/12/2012 06:10:07 PM
642 Views
The effectiveness issue aside
- 22/12/2012 06:13:30 PM
689 Views
Re: The effectiveness issue aside
- 22/12/2012 06:59:36 PM
787 Views
If you think it would solve the debate then probably
- 22/12/2012 07:09:42 PM
746 Views
Nothing will ever truly end the debate, but we can greatly reduce or end its justification.
- 22/12/2012 08:03:39 PM
707 Views
If it's shown to work
- 23/12/2012 12:25:38 AM
791 Views
Of the many school shootings in recent years, I am aware of none where armed cops were present.
- 23/12/2012 12:47:32 AM
714 Views
columbine had two armed guards on the day of the shooting. they were both immediately fired upon...
- 23/12/2012 12:49:30 AM
677 Views
I have never seen any mention of them among the injured or dead (or at all.)
- 23/12/2012 01:09:38 AM
831 Views
you should try harder
- 23/12/2012 01:15:34 AM
850 Views
"a motorcycle patrolman who was near the school writing a speeding ticket" is not stationed there.
- 23/12/2012 01:34:50 AM
789 Views
he still didn't stop the shooting, whether he was there before or after it started
- 23/12/2012 01:49:24 AM
799 Views
No kidding; how could he stop the shooting before it started if he was not there?
- 23/12/2012 02:16:59 AM
635 Views
A fuller account of Gardner
- 23/12/2012 10:27:24 AM
895 Views
Nice link.
- 23/12/2012 02:27:30 PM
673 Views
Re: Nice link.
- 23/12/2012 03:15:24 PM
657 Views
Inexplicably, Ft. Hood was a gun free zone (guess no one told the shooter.)
- 26/12/2012 06:12:42 PM
669 Views
Re: Nice link.
- 23/12/2012 04:21:27 PM
661 Views
Gardner:If you’re going to put a police officer in a school, make sure his focus stays on the school
- 26/12/2012 06:40:41 PM
696 Views
The children are what matter, not the school. Surely this isn't something you disagree on?
- 29/12/2012 02:15:12 PM
724 Views
As usual Moondog, you are missing a BUNCH of facts on this one (links inside)
- 26/12/2012 07:51:29 PM
797 Views
at last count, over 99,000 schools in the US
- 23/12/2012 12:45:30 AM
751 Views
What is public safety worth to you?
- 23/12/2012 12:54:04 AM
661 Views
it's not entirely a matter of cost, although that factors into it.
- 23/12/2012 01:01:50 AM
596 Views
There are many cases where armed cops ended mass shootings.
- 23/12/2012 01:28:25 AM
587 Views
there are none where an armed guard placed there *before* the shooting had any effect
- 23/12/2012 01:36:42 AM
734 Views
Kind of a Catch-22; if they PREVENT shootings, shootings can only occur in their absence.
- 23/12/2012 01:52:03 AM
786 Views
ok, here is my last word on the subject
- 23/12/2012 02:06:49 AM
725 Views
9 people injured vs. 20 people dead.
- 23/12/2012 02:34:00 AM
636 Views
it is still "more guns makes us safer" which has yet to prevent a single massacre in this country
- 23/12/2012 02:41:56 PM
760 Views
Peter Odighizuwa comes to mind, that's also horrible logic
- 23/12/2012 08:27:46 PM
648 Views
Care to prove that negative? The burden to do so is on you as the person who made the assertion.
- 26/12/2012 06:47:07 PM
628 Views
It doesn't have to be a full time gaurd standing looking dangerous.
- 26/12/2012 06:12:14 PM
748 Views
Re: the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics
- 22/12/2012 06:36:32 PM
833 Views
I believe it is fairly common in junior and high schools today, but not elementary schools.
- 22/12/2012 07:12:32 PM
660 Views
This entire post is completely irrelevant.
- 22/12/2012 07:27:45 PM
780 Views
Those who want univeral prohibition/access are equally fringe minorities.
- 22/12/2012 08:18:00 PM
729 Views
there is no Left or Right on this issue, there is only Sane and Insane
- 23/12/2012 12:59:08 AM
750 Views
also: it's insulting to tell parents their kids would be alive if only more guns were around
- 23/12/2012 01:30:53 AM
688 Views
People die from all sort of causes
- 22/12/2012 07:27:53 PM
721 Views
Cars require training, certification and licensing, too; why should guns not?
- 22/12/2012 08:25:43 PM
853 Views
Do bombs require certification?
- 22/12/2012 09:21:25 PM
942 Views
No, they are pretty much illegal for the general public under all conditions.
- 22/12/2012 09:35:35 PM
619 Views
i say this with all due respect -- eat a bag of dicks
- 23/12/2012 01:04:08 AM
737 Views
That was pretty damn respectful under the circumstances.
- 23/12/2012 01:10:04 AM
689 Views
The lack of intellect displayed here is to be expected
- 23/12/2012 04:01:32 AM
713 Views
so according to you we should just make life illegal since everyone is going to die from something..
- 23/12/2012 07:25:05 AM
629 Views
Obviously you didn't put pay attention
- 23/12/2012 01:40:17 PM
670 Views
no, you said "fuck it because people die anyway". there is a big difference
- 23/12/2012 02:46:46 PM
641 Views
Dicks and stones
- 23/12/2012 03:54:25 AM
846 Views
cars and guns kill roughly the same number of people every year -- around 30,000 give or take
- 23/12/2012 01:02:44 AM
688 Views
But over half of gun deaths are suicide.....so cars are much more dangerous to society. *NM*
- 23/12/2012 05:35:45 AM
300 Views
Every year is iffy there, it dropped off the last two, was 40k-50k plus for cars since 1962
- 23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM
644 Views
except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't.
- 23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM
690 Views
Guns are for killing, cars are for transport, cars aren't any safer now against use for homicide
- 23/12/2012 08:22:13 PM
631 Views
but if we are trying to minimize the number of deaths, then more MUST be done for gun laws
- 24/12/2012 03:33:31 AM
608 Views
More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
- 24/12/2012 04:27:04 AM
722 Views
Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
- 25/12/2012 04:49:54 PM
685 Views
Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
- 25/12/2012 08:41:53 PM
660 Views
Here is some interesting data.....knives are as dangerous as "non-handguns"
- 23/12/2012 05:45:08 AM
745 Views
I hope you don't mind me taking this opportunity to plug my new book, "How to Cook with Guns" *NM*
- 23/12/2012 03:04:06 PM
372 Views
there was a school mass stabbing in china the same day as sandy hook
- 23/12/2012 03:18:00 PM
680 Views
I am equally happy that the criminal was incompetant, but that does not diminish their lethality
- 27/12/2012 10:45:33 PM
735 Views
I'm not sure it's about guns.
- 23/12/2012 06:08:50 PM
665 Views
IMO it is about the media attention focuised on the perpetrator. Their name becomes history. *NM*
- 27/12/2012 10:47:15 PM
350 Views