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Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac Send a noteboard - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM

You sit down with someone and say 'look, I want cars to have properly inflated tires, for the sake of safety, the economy, and the environment... what will it take to make it law to have gas stations have to have sensors that can detect a low tire and to refuse to dispense gas to a car with low pressure? We calculate the conversion will cost 2 billion' and then they tell you, and maybe the price is too high, they say 'we'll give you the 2 billion if it comes from green energy subisdies' and you say 'how about if 1 billion comes from there?' and they decline and offer 1.9 from there and .1 from new funds, and you say 1.2 and so on. Maybe you never strike a deal on that and instead come back and say 'hey, I've got it, we give a tax rebate to buy the sensors so long as the gas station agrees to offer a 5 cent per gallon discount to people with properly inflated tires, that 5 cents to come out of the gas tax share.' and now the others nod and agree to 1.2 because the voluntary incentive aspect is more palatable to them.

That's negotiation, we could use more of it. People constantly scream for it but the screamers either are apathetic moderates who don't know/care about the issues or they're raging partisans who think 'negotiate' means 'you give us most or all of what we want, and we give you nothing'


View original postMore ideally something both sides walk away feeling they got the better side of the deal. Keeping in guns only one might trade a federal magazine-capacity limit for easing access to concealed carry permits in those states that make it a nightmare. In a guns for cash sense, I might trade a 10-rnd cap for de-funding PBS and the NEA. It is really just about ensuring that the concession actually offers both sides a victory and leave them feeling they got the better deal or at least didn't get ripped off too badly.


View original posti don't see how the ability to fire fewer bullets at a time even comes close to de-funding one of the largest education benefits this country has ever produced. nor do i see how the de-funding has anything to do with guns whatsoever, and to me this is merely a ploy to destroy something conservatives have insisted is rotting our children's brains by simply existing.

It think you seriously over estimate the impact of Public TV and the national endowment for the arts, especially the former in modern times. But it's just an example inspired by me viewing magazine capacity as mostly feel good whereas the right wanting to kill PBS/NPR is much the same, in terms of the amount it costs versus the attention it gets. Slashing a hundred million out of the NEA's budget has a higher 'dollar value' with the right then a hundred million out of welfare or green subsidies, it represents a better bargaining chip for the left. It's not a 'ploy', and you revert to demonizing the right in your head way to easily.


View original postnow, on a trade for concealed carry permits -- that is something that could be discussed in this scenario. my position, and others advocating for these laws also believe, that we should be able to deter criminals from getting guns as much as possible without infringing on the rights of the responsible individuals. and although i think CCW does not make anyone any safer, if we establish a federal minimum guideline which includes mandatory repeat testing like a driver's license i would feel more at ease with expanding its reach.

Saying a CCW doesn't make a person safer is, to me, identical to if you said saying a first aid kit and a cell phone don't make you safer.

As to a federal policy on CCW I believe that is legit, the existence of the 2nd amendment combined with modern travel make a solid case for it being in federal rather than state or municipal purview. My objection would be the 'mandatory repeat testing' part, I actually have no problem with requiring training for guns, I happen to think it should be done in schools like history or gym or sex ed, opt out style. I would want the phrasing on 'repeat' very carefully worded though to avoid abusive attempts to discourage CCW by making it inconvenient, expensive, or unnecessarily restrictive. You shouldn't need to do it yearly, it should cost much, and I'm way more interested in ensuring people know where the safety is and why you never touch a trigger until you squeeze it then whether they can hit the broadside of a barn. The big issue on that is that many anti-gun sorts will try to stick extra layers on it with the intent of discouraging acquisition, if I see legislation that makes that impossible or reasonably improbable I'd be okay with it.


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View original postResponsible drivers wreck cars all the time, also 'we see stories' is an absolutely unacceptable argument to use with me. We're not talking about the ethics of this, you won't sway me nor I you, your faction wants something we consider very important, you can try to take it by force without exchange, or you can try to find a coin to buy it with.


View original posti was merely pointing out the nature of how this type of discussion does not ever focus on the death toll, when that is the sole purpose of having a gun to begin with. if you like, i could link a set of stories (and even confine it to one single thread since you say you're tired of the gun debate here) of the number of people who mishandle or misuse their guns resulting in the death of innocent people. and this would be in addition to the number of innocents killed for no other reason than someone had a gun and used it on them. and all the other 20-50 deaths per day related to guns in the US. when the number of gun related deaths is nearly equal to the number of people killed by cars, we have more than just a personal rights issue. i don't care if you're swayed by anything i say, i only care that you understand it is a societal issue, not an individual one. we have limits on our 1st amendment rights, but for some reason the 2nd one gets a free pass.

It is a societal issue, yet you argue it in terms of individual tragedy. Rightly so too, since as societal issues go you are essentially arguing that even though most guns will never be used to commit a crime or inflict an accidental injury we should restrict access. You may as well say porn inclines some people to commit rape so we should ban it. All the worse, the left raises the specter of crime and accident, yet it principally focuses on legislation that has minimal practical effect on crime and hysterically resists common sense approaches to minimizing accident. To most of the left, if I proposed high schools had opt-out classes on gun safety and basic marksmanship, they'd throw a fit, even while insisting we should have mandatory classes on how to use a condom. Such an attitude is irrational to me. Now you personally have been shown to approach the issue more rationally but even you, IMO, display very contradictory tendencies when it comes to personal freedom and safety.


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View original postwhy do we need specific laws (like the Tiahrt amendment) which handcuff the collection of data for academic study, and limit the way law enforcement collects that data?


View original postYou ask that mere months after that hack-rag of a newspaper released the names and addresses of citizens with concealed carry?


View original posti won't defend their decision to publish the names, because i thought it was a boneheaded move to try to score a political point. it was also not quite the same type of data we are talking about. if we want to stop going in circles about how deadly guns are to our society, we need to be able to study the issue properly. as a numbers guy, i would expect you to see the value in data that can be shared and studied. instead we get data which must be locked away, lest we learn anything from it.

Boneheaded implies it was stupid, which is true, but misses the more important point that it was terribly unethical. As to the data you refer to, I'm not clear on how it would benefit us. I can almost always find a use for data but it has to be a pretty big and valuable use coupled to an inability to acquire a reasonable approximation through other means to get me to accept violating other people's privacy. Again, to me a gun is no different then a blender or hammer.


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explain to me how being a responsible gun owner or dealer means a store can "lose" over 600 guns in one year and only get a warning not to "lose" any more guns?


View original postKind of ducking the issue, I'm not really interested in why you think guns should be restricted. As to that case though, I don't know the specific, I would point out that if a store lost 600 TVs in one year it would be none of anyone's business except the owner of the store, unless he was claiming theft. To you a gun is an evil thing, one being lost is a big deal, to me it is no more of a concern then if they'd lost a bunch of toasters or blenders.


View original postif people began killing each other with TVs or toasters or blenders, i could see your point. also, one lost gun is probably not a big deal. 600 in one year (to the tune of 1.5 lost per day on average) is definitely an evil thing. a gun dealer which is known to have a lax attitude about following the federal laws and is putting weapons into the hands of criminals? yes that is also definitely an evil thing. http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/badger-guns-lost-license-over-serious-infractions-f64f9bt-142277065.html

They kill each other with knives, we don't track those. The ability to use something for a violent purpose doesn't make it much different to me. A gun can be used to hunt, or protect, and Perrin's axe/hammer moral quandary always seemed very damn silly to me, since a hammer designed for combat isn't much good for forging whereas a war axe is actually just fine for cutting wood. Shooting someone with a gun is not a crime, injuring/killing someone deliberately without reasonable provocation is, be it by shooting them or bludgeoning them to death with a doorstopper fantasy novel. A gun is not a nuke, like a chainsaw it is decidedly dangerous but it does not represent an item of unacceptably high danger with minimal reasonable use like a privately owned nuke or box of hand grenades.

Having read the article, I find it lacks sufficient detail, it sounds like the reporter is presenting a narrative based on deliberately vague facts. There is one very big fact in there, Michael Allan is not his brother or father. He not only deserves to be judged on his own actions, ethics and law demand he be. I'll not say a certain extra wariness and observation is unwarranted, but we do not throw away the fundamental concept of presumption of innocence or accept guilt by association, and guns don't merit some exemption from that.


View original postand as i have said elsewhere in this thread: i don't see anything being taken away from gun owners with the legislation pending in the Senate, so i'm not sure how to begin to have a quid pro quo on the issue when gun owners are literally having nothing taken from them if all of the new bills pass. as stated above, i don't mind the idea of trading one gun related bill for another if it means actually being able to enforce the laws as written, and making it safer and less deadly to have so many guns in our society.

If you don't want to trade for it, then since we clearly do see it as taking away from our rights we will oppose it, and it will fail. Fair enough, you are not wrong to do so but you are wrong to use terms like compromise, when you are unwilling to offer any. My way or the highway isn't a great attitude for public policy but my way or my way is even worse. You categorically reject any bargain, rather than actually bargaining at all. I suggest defunding PBS and the NEA and you reject it out of hand rather than saying, say "Maybe a 10% cut". Well just to remind you, the left has no monopoly on morality, frankly I find the modern left fairly lacking in that quality, but negotiation doesn't require you to recognize the other side to have equal morality just to recognize that somethings are important enough to pay a price for, and with most things one can find a mutually agreeable price.

If these things are so important to you, and will save so may lives, surely there is some program the left would be willing to trade part or all of in exchange for it. This isn't a hostage situation, I very clearly do not believe such legislation will save lives, and since you can't convince me otherwise and I doubt are willing to claim I am irrational and unsound of mind, you can either try to get sufficient support from other sources or offer me and my ideological kin something we consider to offset what we will lose. This doesn't mean mutually agreeable things can't be found, but when none seem to appear after prolonged talk it changes compromise to exchange or conflict rather than discussion of principles and method.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
This message last edited by Isaac on 21/03/2013 at 11:04:12 AM
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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1279 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 697 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 346 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 546 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 570 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 586 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 531 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 562 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 564 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 522 Views
Absolutely - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 597 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 626 Views
That would depend, something of equal value - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 522 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 799 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 553 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 602 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 692 Views
some answers - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 923 Views
Re: some answers - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 689 Views
Re: the NRA - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 528 Views
This is a matter of POV bias - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 483 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 534 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 489 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 484 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 740 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 706 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 715 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 530 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 287 Views
I can't argue that - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 544 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 614 Views
what is high capacity? - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 503 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 532 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 576 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 520 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 262 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 280 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 299 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 276 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 628 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 531 Views
*NM* - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 299 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 548 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 525 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 567 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 507 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 564 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 284 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 668 Views
For what its worth.... - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 507 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 788 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 817 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 701 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 421 Views

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