Active Users:278 Time:05/05/2024 07:24:47 AM
Re: Maybe we just have different definitions. Isaac Send a noteboard - 26/04/2013 10:54:11 PM

View original post
View original postThat old Archimedes quip about a big enough lever is largely accurate, give me unlimited resources but only modern tech and moving a spaceship to Mars is minor, we could move the whole damn solar system by suspending reflective statites over the Sun.


View original postArchimedes referenced a technology that was absolutely not possible for his time and civilization. The entire planet working together with every resource at their disposal could not have enacted his proposal. That, to me, says "technical" problem. Our civilization COULD get to Mars. We could do it for far less than the GDP of a single nation. Even if that's not a rational or sensible use of our resources, we could do it, without impacting the survival of our species whatsoever. That, to me, makes it a social / financial issue rather than a technical one. I agree with most of your points, though (even if I'm going to argue with some of them below, just because ) so I don't think we have vastly differing opinions. We just have different terminology is all.

Most nations in fact do not have GDP sufficient to the task, there are about 200 of them and only 60 have 100+ billion for GDP, and only 24 exceed 500 billion. As I said, it can be done, same as we can build a five mile high tower, but the 'technical issues' remain real, we certainly could do it but do address all those issues would require huge amounts of money. There's precious few things we can't actually so and I don't call those technical issues, I call them violation of known physics. My personal breakdown is:

Economically Viable
Technologically Viable
Technologically Impractical
Physically Impossible

Those obviously can get hazy and arbitrary, but to use pre-millenia examples a 20 inch TV is the first, a 20 foot TV is the second, a 20 mile TV is the third, and a 20 light year one is the fourth, it would undergo gravitational collapse. Those don't apply in the world of current LCD's so much, cost is almost strictly linear to area, such will likely be the case with space travel too..


View original post
View original postBut fuel is an issue, because it cost us around ~$10,000 per kilogram to get to LEO and that means ferrying up a megaton, around a billion kg, would cost us around 10 trillion dollars. Is it doable? Sure. Do we need a full megaton? No, hardly, and that's where the problem arises. Every time we shave off mass to shave off cost we increase those 'technical problems'. It's like building a mile high skyscraper. Can we do it? Sure, absolutely. Should we with current tech and situation? Hell no. Even if people gave the thumbs up to a trillion-dollar expedition, which is what I'd want to do it, I'd still say no. A Mars colony is an utter waste of time until we get better tech, and a trip to Mars for no other purpose but to plant the flag is stupid. Until we jump some more technical hurdles.


View original postFuel is, of course, a gigantic issue. And for what it's worth, I'm on your "not worth it" side. I do think you're vastly exaggerating the problems, however. Why on Earth Mars do we need a BILLION kg? People have lived on the ISS for upwards of a year, and the entire ISS is only about half a million kg. Or, in other words, two thousand times smaller. You seem to be basing most of your mass requirement on shielding the entire capsule, which is not necessary. Radiation shelters work adequately on the ISS, and would likely do the same on a Mars trip. Once the colonists land, they can use Martian soil and the atmosphere to provide additional shielding. Also, as to launch costs, my understanding is that LEO costs of the Falcon Heavy are around $2000/kg, not $10,000.

Well that billion kilos, in perspective, is about two supertankers. And if we actually got to use even 10% of that for ship and payload, we'd be talking about the average long train. That's the kind of supplies I'd want to set up something akin to McMurdo in times of personnel. Sending 4 people or so is dumb.

Now as to Falcon Heavy, $2000 is the listed minimum LEO $/kg, and I won't take that seriously until its done multiple launches on that cost, as opposed to... none.


View original postSo, yeah. Stupid and unnecessary? Probably. 10 trillion dollars for a reasonable shot at success? No way. A megaton is equal to about five of the world's largest cruise ships. That is an absolutely absurd amount of mass for the bare-bones existence of four individuals.

Around 900 kT of that is gonna end up being fuel, and yeah, I went very heavy, its a round number in the range where success is simple-easy and nearly guaranteed. As I said above, I see no reason to send 4 people there, they can't do jack, they can't form a core group at 16-40 minutes round trip conversation, and there's a decidedly non-zero chance of them having to deal with everything form severe depression to murder/suicide, etc. Unless you think several years of having no live communication to anyone but three people while being under huge stress, physically and physiologically and psychologically represents a healthy situation. Right now we don't need too much expertise, we send very smart and well-trained people who know they can literally perform any operation necessary with experts walking them through live, that's both a big technical advantage and a big psychological one. On a moon base we could literally have surgeons sitting there walking someone through complex surgery or techies saying 'no, the other green button' and so on.

Now look, I'm not disputing you can do it with a lot less mass, even with a high-success rate, if success is land live people on Mars and have them live for at least a few months, I'm just saying landing 4 people there is a fundamentally dumb idea unless you plan to bring them back, and that that is also a pretty dumb idea. Hence megaton range is what I'd want to ensure I could send at least a few dozen people there with lots of backups.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Reply to message
If you could, would you move permanently to Mars? - 24/04/2013 03:30:55 AM 1456 Views
You want to go where? *NM* - 24/04/2013 06:29:07 AM 412 Views
Have you read the 'Mars' trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson? - 24/04/2013 06:37:26 AM 897 Views
Well, I'll look into it. - 24/04/2013 07:13:05 PM 789 Views
"Digital Descendants" - 25/04/2013 09:30:54 PM 797 Views
I think it's incredible that such a thing is even being attempted - 24/04/2013 08:13:16 AM 881 Views
I know. It really perplexes me that so many people are so down on it. - 24/04/2013 07:19:42 PM 828 Views
I am not gonna lie - 24/04/2013 08:24:57 AM 823 Views
No, and definitely not with this group - 24/04/2013 10:26:03 AM 899 Views
What's the problem, technically? - 24/04/2013 07:24:22 PM 798 Views
Basically? Mass and redundancy - 24/04/2013 10:40:30 PM 709 Views
The mass is what I wondered about. - 24/04/2013 11:03:36 PM 748 Views
Fuel costs are linear to mass, total costs are probably less - 25/04/2013 12:20:55 AM 703 Views
To put this in perspective, adding to Issac's points - 25/04/2013 01:50:38 AM 769 Views
That's not really a fair comparison. - 25/04/2013 08:18:35 PM 715 Views
Re: That's not really a fair comparison. - 26/04/2013 02:22:18 AM 682 Views
Re: That's not really a fair comparison. - 26/04/2013 08:58:45 PM 868 Views
I agree with your points, but you've still only listed financial (not technical) problems. - 25/04/2013 08:22:25 PM 730 Views
Finacial problems are technical problems - 25/04/2013 10:19:17 PM 728 Views
Maybe we just have different definitions. - 26/04/2013 09:25:33 PM 771 Views
Re: Maybe we just have different definitions. - 26/04/2013 10:54:11 PM 728 Views
So, suppose someone put you in charge. - 27/04/2013 02:14:44 AM 750 Views
Well that would be a bad idea, but... - 27/04/2013 03:29:47 PM 857 Views
Ask me when I am 60, I adored the Mar Trilogy though *NM* - 24/04/2013 12:54:58 PM 449 Views
It's all about prospects and hard work. - 24/04/2013 03:16:56 PM 856 Views
I wouldn't go like that. - 24/04/2013 05:15:09 PM 768 Views
No, but I wouldn't mind sending a few people there - 25/04/2013 01:52:56 AM 777 Views
Not with that. - 25/04/2013 07:32:40 PM 713 Views
Probably. - 26/04/2013 10:02:58 PM 655 Views
This is by far the most elaborate form of suicide ever proposed. - 10/08/2013 08:04:43 AM 1411 Views

Reply to Message