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Not really. Legolas Send a noteboard - 31/07/2015 07:30:41 AM

It might be a question of definitions to some extent - a dialect for me is primarily about spoken language, as even languages with only a single written standard can have tons of different dialects. Which includes British English - there are plenty of different British dialects even within the UK. I don't know too much about American dialects, especially not Southern ones, so I couldn't possibly say how valid it is to view Southern as a single dialect which is hence the biggest in the USA. But I do agree that if it's the biggest in the USA, it's probably also the biggest in the world. At least before you go into the question of the non-native speakers.

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View original postTrue: There is far more to dialect generally. That only underscores the significance of modern British English being practically indistinguishable from that taught and spoken in India, all of Western Europe, most of Africa and the remaining British colonies (just for the record: Indias population ALONE outnumbers the US (not just its Southern region) by a factor of 4, and Europes by a factor of 2.) Given all dialect involves, the nearly perfect equivalence between UK, Continental European, African and Indian English strongly suggest they are not just superficially and/or incidentally identical, but ACTUALLY so. That those speakers outnumber Southern US English speakers by an order of magnitude irrefutably establishes British English as the "larger" dialect by population as well as area.

As I was hinting, there is no such "nearly perfect equivalence" at all. Indian, Kenyan, Nigerian, ... English are all quite different, and India in particular is so big and has so many different native languages that I'm sure "Indian English" is already a big generalization in itself. Not only do they sound different, there are also bigger or smaller differences in vocabulary and even grammar. Sure, they may all write "colour" instead of "color", but that doesn't make them speak "British English".

You'll note that I'm not talking here about continental Europeans - that's because things are different there. The large majority of English speakers in India, Kenya, Nigeria have other native languages, just like the ones in Europe, but the difference is that those three countries (and many other African ones) do use English as a lingua franca - much of the media, books, workplace communication, and so on is in English. Which means that e.g. Kenyan English has standards and norms of its own, and someone who speaks a different kind of English will stand out. For e.g. "German English", this is not the case - there is a German accent, sure, and perhaps even some words which German speakers are more or less likely to use - but those are markers of imperfect language skills rather than markers of a separate variety of English: as a German improves his English, those things will fade away.

And then which English will he speak as his fluency improves to near-native levels? Depends. Can be American as well as British English, or more likely something inbetween that is neither one nor the other. The most decisive factor would probably be who he spends most of his time talking to - Americans, Brits or other European non-native speakers.


View original post1) Many (I daresay most) Indian and Continental Europeans speak English at or near the level of fluency and

It all depends on how you define "fluency", but it's worth pointing out that most numbers I've seen estimate the amount of "English speakers" both native and non-native at no more than about 700 - 800 million globally. Which makes clear that certainly among the Indians, only a minority is counted.
View original post2) between them constitute nearly 1/3 of the global populace; adding in Africans who either speak it on the same basis or as a native language makes them ~80% of all English speakers.

More like 50% based on the above.
View original postWhen debating which dialect is a languages largest, how is it fair to NOT discuss 4 out of 5 its speakers just because they are non-native speakers, especially when most speak it as well as most natives? You write English better than many native speakers, so why would I exclude you from "English speakers" just because it is your second, third or fifteenth language? The is the form learned and used, not whether it was acquired from ones parents or ones formal educators.

Well, you have a point for cases like Kenya that I discussed above. But for countries where English isn't used in daily communication, I'm less sure. Even if you do count the fluent English speakers in those countries (and where does one draw the line of "fluent"?), it would be quite difficult to figure out which dialect they all speak.

To answer your question in the second post - in the English I was taught in school, the aim was to make students pick either British or American English and stick with it. Many Europeans, myself included, have a surprisingly hard time distinguishing between the two, because we constantly hear/read both, and both are familiar to us. So nearly everyone ends up with something inbetween, both in accent and in vocabulary, unless their individual circumstances are such that one of the two predominates (e.g. having British family, studying abroad in the US,...). In my personal case, the default is somewhere halfway, but when speaking to Brits it shifts in the direction of British, without ever quite getting there, and the same with Americans.

View original postBottom line, best case scenario for the assertion that started this sub-thread: The assertion cannot be conclusively PROVEN wrong, but there is much substantial EVIDENCE against it, and the burden of proof always lies on an assertion, else anyone could say any absurd thing and expect it to be accepted as fact until/unless someone refuted it by proving a negative. Since Indians alone (e.g. excluding Pakistanis) outnumber Southern English speakers by an order of magnitude, and European and African speakers each do so by half that much, it is very unlikely any (much less ALL) of them speak (an) English dialect(s) less common than the Souths. There is no airtight proof either way, but also no reason to believe dialect varies significantly more within any single region than within any other.

Any question of dialect size will depend on ultimately arbitrary decisions about where you draw the dividing line between one dialect and another - the infamous "dialect continuum". I think it doesn't make any sense to claim that all of the people you listed speak the same dialect. But, as mentioned, I don't know whether it does make sense to claim that "Southern" is in fact a single dialect.

The last point, though, I completely disagree with - dialect certainly varies more within the UK than within the US. And within the US, it's not a coincidence that New England has more variety than the West. It's all a question of history - having more time to develop dialectical variations, and the amount of geographical mobility, which if high will rapidly erase dialect differences between regions. In Europe and to a much lesser extent in New England, you may find places with such low geographical mobility that to this day the local dialect is easily distinguishable from the one spoken a mere 3 miles further, with entire dialect groups living 30 or 50 miles apart. That's absolutely not the case in most of the US.

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Would "UK English" have been better? - 30/07/2015 10:47:53 PM 643 Views
Not really. - 31/07/2015 07:30:41 AM 605 Views
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The distinction between the first two is negligible - 29/07/2015 07:52:50 PM 644 Views

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