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Interesting stuff. Legolas Send a noteboard - 10/08/2015 07:12:26 PM

I will admit that I've always thought those estimates I mention seemed on the low side - they must either set their standards very high, or basically ignore all the English speakers in countries where English isn't used as a lingua franca (within the country, that is - the countries of Kachru's "Expanding Circle", basically).

On the other hand, young Europeans will very likely overestimate just how universally accepted English is as a lingua franca - even within Europe, the generational gap is massive.


View original postAs preface to what (d)evolved into a long response (sorry) and FWIW, part of the problem seems to be that other languages with large numbers of non-native and/or international speakers have official standarization organizations to determine what is/not legitimate, but English does NOT. Consequently, all attempts at defining all- or even MOSTLY encompassing standards are necessarily ad hoc.

Meh. Just because such an organization exists doesn't mean it's taken all that seriously - the French have a few institutions that try to proscribe which words are and aren't French, but that doesn't mean the average French native speaker will adhere to those judgements. I do however agree that English is more strongly multi-polar, so to speak, than French or to a lesser extent Spanish - there are more generally accepted separate varieties, and there isn't one variety that dominates all the rest thanks to the continued importance of both the UK and the US.
View original postChecking shows “dialect” is essentially defined as “morphology+vocabulary+grammar+accent.” That is very unsatisfying, because it leaves no term for the first three exclusive of the last. Yet its practical effect is that ONLY the first three distinguish dialects, because “accent” fully covers the sole remaining criterion (i.e. pronunciation.) In terms of dialect, distinct accents are a case of an attribute “necessary but insufficient” to establish separation

Yes, but I think you'll find that distinct accents are nearly always accompanied by at least marginal differences in vocabulary. At least in the UK where the dialects are older, or here in Flanders.
View original postYet which NATIVE dialect is largest is irrelevant until we answer that critical question of whether to include the 75% of NON-native English speakers. English is the “primary” language of 22 nations, where populations of the 6 “Anglosphere” nations are roughly equlled by that of NON-Anglosphere nations (mainly Nigerias 220 million residents.) It is an (if not THE) official language in 15 more—including India and Pakistan. So restricting the question to the 6 “Anglosphere” nations is like Major League Baeball annually crowing a “World Series” champion despite ignoring all teams in Japan and the Caribbean nations that provide a growing number of MLBs best players. Wikipedias page on global English-speakers relies on Crystals stats extensively (though not exclusively; its Indian figures are from Indias millennial census, and about a third of Crystals estimate of Indian English speakers) and so ends with an estimate similar to his: 350 million native speakers; 850 million non-native speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population

I quite agree on the World Series, as you might expect. It goes beyond baseball - other sports like basketball also have an unfortunate, and frankly bizarre, tendency of occasionally referring to its champions as "world champions". A team may be the best in the world and yet not become world champion; ask the USA's unfortunate women's "soccer" team of 2011 (I have rarely seen a football game in which one side was so dominant and still managed to lose).

To get back to the topic at hand, I actually quite agree with Kachru's view that you brought up: that for purposes of counting varieties of English, those of the "Outer Circle" might qualify, but the English spoken by the "Expanding Circle" not so much.


View original postI was not aware grammar and words differ within (for want of a better term) "African English," and that does make a difference. I never noticed it among coworkers, but they provide most of my experience with English-speaking Africans. I presumed colonialisms legacy included a largely uniform Commonwealth dialect with many accents, but if those dialects vary as much or more than others it is as difficult to precisely estimate their speakers. How great is the difference? The Midwestern dialect is distinct from others in the US, but Wisconsites referring to drinking fountains as “bubblers” does constitute an accent distinct from the rest of the Midwest; one term does not a dialect make: Are African dialects more comparable to that, or to the half dozen distinct and bona fide Southern dialects?

I'm hardly an expert on the matter, it's not like I have plenty of examples ready. Check out the Wikipedia page on Kenyan English to get an idea. Of course more highly educated people will still speak something closer to British English, or at least with fewer turns of phrase that an American/Briton would view as ungrammatical. Differences can be small, to be sure - I speak or email with South Africans on a near-daily basis, and the list of particularly distinctive words or expressions that I've noticed is no more than five or so words. But it rapidly grows when you get into code-switching and the insertion of words from the local language in English, as people do basically everywhere in Africa.
View original postPrecisely what I meant, and one would expect that effect to be even more pronounced among separate but interacting nations using English as a lingua franca. After all, much of continental Europes uniform English is because Western European ALSO often uses it as a lingua franca (if often grudgingly.) According to what I first read when preparing to move here, Norwegian visa applicant are required to speak Norwegian OR ENGLISH, lucky for me since my Norwegian remains awful despite living her five years: Because it is so absurdly easy to speak English exclusively.

The ironic thing about the prevalence of non-native English as lingua franca, is that Britons or Americans may actually find themselves being less proficient in this language than Europeans (or any other group) themselves, because they have a hard time realizing which words or expressions of their native language are widely understood, and which not so much. Even I find that speaking and writing English at a higher level than most of my colleagues (thanks in no small part to this site and wotmania) can actually be a handicap rather than an asset, since the vast majority of people I communicate with professionally are non-native speakers whose English is sometimes quite basic. I have colleagues who are understood more easily precisely because their English is not as good.
View original postThe Danish equivalent of "Cops" airs here, and a couple years ago the commercial for it included one of the cops, frustrated by inability to communicate with someone he was arresting, said, "You should learn English better before you travel in Europe." In fact, last years ranking of English Proficiency (apparently there is such a thing) rated Denmark #1 and Norway #5; for a reference frame, Belgium was 9th, followed by Germany at 10th, while France was all the way down at 29th—four spots below India, which has twenty times the population (so proportionately more English speakers.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index The list of nations by English speaking populations notes that, in 2012, 51% of EU residents spoke English, a total second only to the US on that list (though it falls to third if one accepts Crystals estimates of Indias English-speakers rather than that of Indias 2001 census.)

Just for the record, Belgium's ranking is due to an awkward average between Flanders, which I'd estimate somewhere around the #5 rank, and Wallonia which is often said to be even worse than France. Though they are improving. I have some other doubts about that list, though; anyone who's visited both Lisbon and Madrid will express very serious doubts about Spain ranking anywhere near Portugal, nevermind actually above it.
View original postThat is a frankly awful and implausible estimate: Only 10% of the world can carry on a conversation in English? Even though ~70% of all internet exchanges are in English? The US, UK, Canada and Australia account for >400 million themselves: Is it plausible Asia, Europe and Africa COMBINED have no more than 300-400 million people who speak English well? Again, a 2012 survey of the EU alone found >250 million people spoke “conversational” English even if some were not perfectly fluent; there are only 50-150 million conversational English speakers among the 6 billion people outside North America, Australia and Western Europe? That is very dubious; Crystal may (or may not) overestimate English speakers, but Kachrus Three Circles Model underestimates them at least as much with far less cause; after all, Braj Kachru HIMSELF is an Indian native.

Do you have any source for the 70% of internet exchanges number? It seems highly unlikely to be honest.

But yes, as mentioned above, I do agree that those estimates seem low, and that they can't possibly be right if you lower the bar to the level of "can carry on a conversation in English". The thing is of course that truly massive percentages of the world population, perhaps even a majority, knows at least a few words in English. But for many of them, "a few words" is really all there is to it. That can't be said of any other language, so in that sense English is undisputably the "lingua franca" of the world. But it does not necessarily follow that English has more actual speakers than Chinese (though I'm inclined to agree it almost certainly does, if you don't put the bar unreasonably high).

View original postI worked with an Italian and Pole here who (embarrassingly) spoke three languages better than I speak two; we conversed almost exclusively in English and almost never had any problem fully understanding each other. Likewise (ironically) on breaks during the multiple Norwegian classes here: Even when NO participants were NATIVE English speakers, conversation was almost exclusively in English unless participants were all from the same country. In fact, my Norwegian society/culture class was TAUGHT in English (by one of those native African English speakers, though the fact he lived in Texas for two decades makes him unrepresentative.) All the various Europeans, Africans and Asians in each of those classes displayed a firm grasp of English. It is possible many of those people were the most educated citizens of their respective countries; I know some were. Yet even so: Among 6½ billion people, even the 10% most educated is DOUBLE the estimate of non-US/Commonwealth English speakers.

Some countries won't come anywhere near 10%, and would be lucky to reach 1%. But yes, point taken.
View original postFair enough then, and a good argument for Kachrus “International English:” If such an erratically fluid neutral dialect is the norm among the 75% of conversational but non-native English speakers, that “Dialect That Is Not Dialect” could ITSELF be the largest.

If you count it as a single "dialect", then yes, no doubt. Don't think it makes much sense to do that, though.


View original postNo more (possibly less) than others: Wikipedias English dialects list has <10 for Africas 1 billion residents, but THIRTY-FIVE for 320 million US residents.

It might be worth considering how well African residents are represented on Wikipedia compared to US residents, though. And I don't think Africa outnumbers the US in amount of English speakers, either, though it might come close.
View original postIt is the case in much of the South, because mobility presupposes movements affordability, and even when it exists does not imply WILLINGNESS to move: Much of the South is impoverished and MOST of it is rural, provincial and insular; historically, those factors do not exactly correlate with numerical or cultural dominance. The biggest reason the Southern dialects are so numerous are 1) defeated and disenfranchised Confederates migrating to western territories where they could assume untainted new identities and 2) the Great Migration of Southern blacks who fled Southern segregation for the North (and its segregation) a century ago. Both groups took their dialects with them, passed them on to their kids and consequently formed large Southern dialect salients in the West and North. Yet there are six dialects even within the Souths own historical borders (of which the northern one has been steadily moving south at least since the Civil War) and >30 throughout the whole US; that is only slightly less than the UKs >40, even if each dialects speakers generally include far more people given a US population roughly five times Britains.

Fair enough, I guess.
View original postUltimately, it is very hard to believe the upper limit of <30 million speakers of any given Southern dialect is anything like a plurality of the 1 billion+ conversational speakers of various English dialects. 3% is rarely a plurality of anything, and the proving the case for it here certainly requires more than a lone Southern partisan proudly waving the Confederate Battle flag and conflating accent with dialect to defy emeritus linguists and factual global surveys.

Just as long as we're clear that no, all the non-native speakers of the world do not speak British English.
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Y'all, you guys, yous guys, or hey you all? - 25/07/2015 05:38:44 PM 962 Views
Y'all may be the American South's greatest gift to the English language. - 27/07/2015 12:14:47 AM 594 Views
*whistles innocently* - 27/07/2015 04:17:43 AM 729 Views
"Hey, you guys!" is only correct if you are Rita Moreno - 27/07/2015 04:15:07 AM 562 Views
Perhaps, but you're also wrong. - 27/07/2015 04:45:48 AM 796 Views
Both spellings are "correct" to the extent EITHER are. - 27/07/2015 05:04:43 AM 794 Views
Funny.... - 29/07/2015 12:13:35 AM 651 Views
It is also correct if you are Sloth... on a pirate ship... *NM* - 29/07/2015 07:09:56 PM 504 Views
I will defer to you and Jeordam on that one - 29/07/2015 07:45:31 PM 644 Views
well since language is a democracy and the souther dialetic is the largest Y'all wins - 27/07/2015 02:07:22 PM 719 Views
The Southern dialect is the largest by what metric? - 27/07/2015 06:26:20 PM 704 Views
It also the accent most similar to what Victorian brits would have spoken - 27/07/2015 07:45:09 PM 639 Views
Whoa, now: The PIEDMONT accent may be closest to Received Pronunciation, but is not the whole South - 28/07/2015 12:37:56 AM 715 Views
I don't make the catagories but all the southern accents tend to be close *NM* - 28/07/2015 02:12:15 PM 464 Views
Except, as you noted, Virginias accent is closer to Englands (and New Englands, and South Africas) - 28/07/2015 11:00:46 PM 679 Views
that is not what I said - 29/07/2015 02:14:49 PM 698 Views
Sorry, I credited you w/knowing the Deep South, Appalachia and TX sound nothing like any UK accents - 29/07/2015 07:42:21 PM 639 Views
read slower and then read again until you understand what I said - 29/07/2015 08:14:19 PM 907 Views
"The people in the American South were Victorian Brits"?! I must have read that too fast - 29/07/2015 10:39:08 PM 645 Views
Erm. Not really sure what you're saying here... - 29/07/2015 11:35:26 PM 611 Views
Would "UK English" have been better? - 30/07/2015 10:47:53 PM 643 Views
Not really. - 31/07/2015 07:30:41 AM 605 Views
David Crystal estimates proficient non-natives outnumber native English speakers 3:1 - 10/08/2015 02:45:58 AM 592 Views
Interesting stuff. - 10/08/2015 07:12:26 PM 688 Views
Who says "yous guys"? Seriously? - 27/07/2015 07:56:28 PM 632 Views
B-movie mobsters - 28/07/2015 12:40:04 AM 811 Views
They said it when I lived in Chicago - 28/07/2015 02:10:27 PM 619 Views
Scots. - 28/07/2015 02:42:28 PM 662 Views
I have heard it a couple of times. - 28/07/2015 03:13:20 PM 604 Views
Isn't fake culture almos the defintion of hipster? *NM* - 28/07/2015 05:18:53 PM 329 Views
Depends, are trying to sound cool, like a douche, or Joe Pesci? *NM* - 29/07/2015 07:12:28 PM 512 Views
The distinction between the first two is negligible - 29/07/2015 07:52:50 PM 644 Views

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