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Well if you want to completely redefine the phrase "just a thug", perhaps you're right Tom Send a noteboard - 16/03/2017 02:43:38 PM

You didn't say "Stalin was more like a mafia don, and Lenin was more like a statesman", though even there I don't agree. Lenin, as I pointed out above, used chemical weapons on peasants who refused to give up their grain and starve. Everything Stalin did had been done by Lenin before, including rounding up and executing political enemies without any trial, or with only a farce of a trial. Lenin just had the "fortune" of dying in 1924 and having been incapacitated from 1922 on, and the worst of what he did was explained away as "expedients required during the Russian Civil War" (which lasted roughly 1918-1922), so people give him a pass, despite the overwhelming evidence that he was willing to use exactly the same political weapons that Stalin was.

Your argument about the Orthodox Church (a cynical propaganda maneuver) would make sense if taken in isolation, but you then cite his paranoia and need for total control of society as the fundamental cause of his schemes of industrialization, collectivization and militarization. You can't have it both ways in your argument: either he was so obsessed with control that he destroyed everything he didn't control absolutely and completely (which would have included the Church), or he was superstitious (which is borne out by many eyewitnesses). I never said he was a "true believer" or a man of faith. I merely said he retained a visceral, superstitious fear of God following the Nazi invasion. It was enough that he went from an anti-religious campaign designed to destroy all religious expression to allowing it to exist. Of course he put NKVD agents into the Church to infiltrate it, but by Stalin's standards that was the bare minimum.

Stalin's authorship of his poetry is not in doubt. It was written to impress girls and sent to them when he was still a young man. He actually avoided discussing it later in life because it detracted from the view of him as a powerful leader.

And as for your question, no, the socialist ideologues of his generation were decidedly NOT anti-military. They opposed "imperialist wars" but they were actively arming the "working class" for open class warfare. This is evident not only from the Bolshevik coup, but also from the experience of many other countries at the time (most notably, Germany, where proto-Nazis got their start fighting armed Spartacists in the streets).

It's also a misconception that Stalin executed competent generals. When you look at the ones executed and the ones who remain, it becomes clear he executed the incompetent ones. Dybenko, for example, fled the field of battle in the Russian Civil War and his only exploits were against unarmed peasants. Many others were opponents of the use of the tank and favored continued reliance on cavalry. The "Stalin executed all the good generals and senior officers" myth was one that the Soviets spread in the 1950s and 1960s to deflect attention from the fact that Stalin (and his successors) were planning to take over the world.

I have no idea what you're talking about on the 76.2mm gun, since Russia was using 76.2mm guns in World War I as well. Can you cite a source?

As for the uselessness of the captured Soviet tanks, I would also like to see a source. The sheer numbers of tanks seized, combined with their mention in the memoirs of Guderian and others, makes me skeptical of the claim.

In any event, this isn't designed to be a debate over whether or not the Soviet Union could have won the war without Allied help after the Nazi attack, or whether or not the casualty rate was sustainable (prior to the Kursk counteroffensive in 1943, it wasn't, and everyone agrees on that point). The question is whether or not the Red Army had the equipment and resources to start a war against Germany. The answer to that question is that it did. Yes, it would have suffered heavier casualties than an army with more advanced equipment or better training, but had the Soviet air force gotten into the air, it had the numbers and gunnery to overwhelm the Luftwaffe, just like the Soviet tanks could hold their own against the German tanks (Hell, the Germans still used PzKpfw Mark Is in Barbarossa, and those things were shit).

The entire reason that I discussed Stalin's military buildup was not to allow you to start a pissing match over the minutiae of World War II, which I understand is a hobby for a wide range of people from ex-military types to 300-pound retired mechanical engineers, inclusively. The point was to show that Stalin never at any point swore off the notion of worldwide revolution that the "ideologues" Lenin and Trotsky had worked to achieve. The risks that Stalin took nearly caused revolution in 1932-1933 and again in 1936. In 1941, as we all know, he expected to be arrested and shot in late June.

I stand by my assertion that Stalin was not qualitatively different from Lenin or Trotsky. Neither of them wanted revolution if they weren't leading it. If Lenin were committed to revolution rather than power, he wouldn't have gotten rid of the legitimately elected parliament that was mostly composed of Social Revolutionaries with a strong Bolshevik presence. He wouldn't have murdered Mensheviks and left-leaning Social Revolutionaries who shared his goals.

Trotsky, similarly, saw Stalin implementing many of his own ideas, but because it was Stalin, and not Trotsky, doing the implementing, he railed against Stalin mercilessly (and without anyone listening).

Your original statement was that people see Lenin and Trotsky as "ideologues" and Stalin as "just a thug". My point is that, regardless of anything else, Stalin was not fundamentally different from Lenin or Trotsky. Lenin wrote more, yes, because he was in power for less time. So perhaps he's a bit of the Saul Alinsky to Stalin's Obama. However, in a qualitative sense, they're essentially the same. The same ambition, thirst for power, willingness to use any means to obtain and maintain it, indifference to human suffering, willingness to "sacrifice" the Russian people for a chimera of world revolution and writings that are practically unreadable. There's not one point where they differ, except that Stalin threw better dinner parties and was 100% paranoid, whereas the others were only perhaps 75% paranoid.

Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Tom on 16/03/2017 at 02:44:07 PM
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The February Revolution and Kerensky’s Missed Opportunity - 13/03/2017 09:37:00 PM 673 Views
Fascinating stuff - 13/03/2017 10:52:58 PM 316 Views
Who knows? It could have been worse off. - 13/03/2017 11:37:54 PM 408 Views
What's your opinion on Lenin? - 14/03/2017 02:06:59 AM 352 Views
Lenin. A monster. - 14/03/2017 12:55:18 PM 381 Views
Thanks. I'll ask him too. *NM* - 14/03/2017 03:01:36 PM 185 Views
Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky were all bloodthirsty mass murderers. - 14/03/2017 08:59:06 PM 405 Views
That's fascinating. But give me a book recommendation! - 14/03/2017 09:15:57 PM 318 Views
Start with a general history of Russia - 14/03/2017 10:17:22 PM 429 Views
Excellent. Thank you. It's next on the list. - 15/03/2017 02:11:14 AM 386 Views
Russian history is as depressing as they come. - 15/03/2017 12:08:15 PM 388 Views
Read Figes first, I suppose. - 14/03/2017 10:55:23 PM 343 Views
Thanks, Tom. I've been putting off reading good literature because of my unfamiliarity with Russia. *NM* - 15/03/2017 02:12:10 AM 175 Views
Which books have you put off reading? *NM* - 15/03/2017 12:05:32 PM 162 Views
DEMONS and THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV are the big two. - 15/03/2017 02:58:13 PM 326 Views
You don't necessarily need to know the history. - 15/03/2017 03:15:38 PM 364 Views
I'm always afraid I'm missing something critical, though! - 15/03/2017 03:50:59 PM 316 Views
Annotations are amazing. My eBook version of War and Peace was the same. - 15/03/2017 04:03:59 PM 337 Views
My High School English teacher neglected Russian literature. - 16/03/2017 01:46:29 AM 295 Views
Hmmmm. - 16/03/2017 01:18:14 PM 331 Views
Tolstoy was a reprehensible human being - 15/03/2017 04:02:52 PM 317 Views
I had no idea. I was under the impression he was deeply devout. - 16/03/2017 01:47:43 AM 335 Views
Here's one example: - 16/03/2017 02:06:45 AM 330 Views
Good lord. The man sounds deranged. But that's fascinating! Is there a good biography on him? *NM* - 16/03/2017 07:50:10 AM 164 Views
Pavel Basinsky's bio is best - 16/03/2017 02:46:47 PM 482 Views
Getting it now. Thanks. *NM* - 16/03/2017 11:06:25 PM 168 Views
For what it's worth, I read Lenin & Trotsky as genuine idealists, while Stalin as just a thug - 15/03/2017 11:16:36 AM 370 Views
I think that's entirely incorrect. - 15/03/2017 04:00:54 PM 372 Views
I didn't mean stupid or brutish, I meant more like a mafia don than a statesman - 16/03/2017 12:18:34 PM 281 Views
Well if you want to completely redefine the phrase "just a thug", perhaps you're right - 16/03/2017 02:43:38 PM 324 Views
Good point - 16/03/2017 09:52:29 PM 410 Views
I hear what you're saying, but... - 16/03/2017 11:53:19 PM 341 Views
Attempt at clarification - 17/03/2017 12:55:03 AM 403 Views
Hehehe..."Fuck off" - 19/03/2017 05:23:49 PM 346 Views
Seems kind of nonsensical - 14/03/2017 01:33:49 AM 419 Views
Good reply. - 14/03/2017 12:57:47 PM 399 Views
They weren't really wrong - 14/03/2017 01:30:07 PM 424 Views
I do enjoy historical "what if" situations. - 14/03/2017 01:47:27 AM 344 Views
Hi there. - 14/03/2017 01:02:44 PM 302 Views
I still think democracy among those insidiously intrusive Western values Russia resists so fiercely - 14/03/2017 02:37:39 PM 337 Views
Is it your persistant anti-Russia bias that makes you so dogmatic? - 14/03/2017 02:51:23 PM 337 Views
I have no problem with Russia, only its government - 14/03/2017 03:07:14 PM 359 Views
Really? - 14/03/2017 03:15:10 PM 353 Views
What a terrible article - 14/03/2017 08:04:50 PM 307 Views
I thought you would think this way. - 15/03/2017 12:04:57 PM 391 Views
I can't decide what I think about Evans - 15/03/2017 04:10:05 PM 309 Views

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