I don't think he won by default, and that was his primary issue.
Joel Send a noteboard - 05/02/2010 08:09:50 AM
For one thing, elections are NEVER won by default (again, see: Kerry, John. )
Two for the price of one was not a chant that was winning back Reagan Democrats and indies. I'm not even sure if he won many of those back. 43%, that's what he got. When the clear majority of voters do not vote for you, you may be the legitimate POTUS, but it doens't mean you have a mandate for your policies.
Boll weevil Dems never really came back, nor will. That was the "Southern Strategys" final payoff so less said the better; hopefully 2008 put that thinking with its fellows on historys rubbish heap.
Maybe not a true mandate, but I think it's safe to say universal healthcare polled a lot better in November '92 than summer of '93 despite the fact the government hadn't actually DONE anything (sound familiar?) I still remember the insurance industries media barrage of "husband and wife" actors discussing the terrors of having health insurance that actually provided effective and affordable healthcare. It's stunning to see how quickly a little ad money can convince the public they don't want what they said they did.
No one on the right doesn't think it's an issue, but many of us do believe that the majority of the price increase simply represents all the new options available to keep the average person alive longer and the ill person from premature death. The abuses, well, those do need to be dealt with but the problem with this bill is it didn't address the one nearest and dearest to the GOP and right next to the Dem's campaign coffers - tort reform. Reid, Pelosi, and Obama botched it. There was a mandate for reform, but that didn't mean 'their reform', and nobody trusted a bill that couldn't get a single GOP vote, well, one out of the house who then said no to the senate bill. Lot of complaints about the Bush Tax cuts, the wars, and Patriot, but lots of democrat votes for all of them. Bipartisan doens't mean an equal number, it means convincing around a quarter to half of the other side to come on board. 60 votes or not, everyone noticed the utter absence of even tentative support from any GOP. On something new and untested, people want to know that the opposition at least thinks it might be viable.
You are entitled to believe what you wish, but other developed countries have the same life saving/extending procedures we do; they just tend to be more accessible to people with little or no private insurance in those countries, and saying that people there wait for weeks or months for non-critical care they couldn't receive AT ALL here doesn't change that. It makes for nice rhetoric, but while people ARE rushing over the Rio Grande for medical care they can't get at home, at such a rate it's breaking the system, they're going TO Mexico, not FROM it.
I can pretty much guarantee you Obamas mandate wasn't "limit my damage award when medical incompetence kills my only bread winner. " The whole bipartisan thing is getting a little tired; when a minority Senator is sending out emails that completely ignore the issue or possible reforms, but urge other members to "make healthcare Obamas Waterloo" it's kinda hard to think the failure is just Democratic stubbornness. Especially when it's the same GOP that got those Dem votes for "PATRIOT" and the IWR by daring Democrats to vote against it. Again, if the loyal opposition doesn't like the majoritys proposal, make a better one (which was the great failing of Kerry et alia. ) We just recently discussed the far greater tendency of liberals than conservatives to break with their party; liberals usually want "change" which can be defined myriad ways, but there aren't many variations on "keep everything as it is now. "
Unfortunately, "reform" from the latter usually means eliminating previous intended remedies rather than addressing any of the problems that created them. Again, I find it interesting that most of the "downsize government" crowd sees to see the only valuable healthcare "reform" to be the federal government interfering with citizen juries in civil trials (which incidentally flies in the face of the spirit if not (necessarily) the letter of the Seventh Amendment. ) There are much better ways to stop private insurers raising malpractice insurance premiums (and consequently healthcare costs) then ALSO raising healthcare premiums as a direct result. I'm well aware how high a priority industry friendly tort reforms are for the GOP, not just in healthcare, but across the board, but just because they're trying to use the real demand for healthcare reform as a Trojan horse to advance that agenda doesn't mean they suddenly care about HEALTHCARE (rather than tort) reform. It's funny how we keep hearing about evil trial lawyers like John Edwards representing individuals and never hear a word about FIRMS of evil trial lawyers on retainer just WAITING for the call to come fight them.
When a poll says Bush lost and he picks up 50.7%, the most a POTUS has gotten since his father was elected, it's more an indicator that the poll was wrong.
It wasn't just "a" poll, it was everyone of which I'm aware. And I was tracking a LOT of them, with help doing so from EVP. In fact, given that EVP does its projections by averaging all published polls (except partisan ones like PPP and Strategic Vision) and giving extra weight to the most recent, and given their election day projection had Kerry winning FL by the 5% he lost it by, it's probably best to let the matter of "fuzzy math" slide.
Kerry ran a SORRY campaign, right up till the end, when, despite promising for months that "every vote will count and every vote will be counted" he conceded while OH (and thus the Presidency) was still very much in doubt.
It isn't hard to demonize trial lawyers, look at Edwards.
I have. Repeatedly. The way he's conducted his personal life in the past few years is shameful and disappointing, but he's a mill workers son who earned his college degree rather than being a legacy like Bush and Kerry, and made his professional career representing people injured by incompetence and negligence, facing and beating the various firms of evil trial lawyers the responsible parties dialed up to contest that.
Try looking at HDI, which factors both the metrics you cite (plus literacy rates. ) You may debate how it weights each one, but it's not ignoring any. We're not number one; we're number thirteen and FALLING (Norway is number one, because Iceland, almost as a nation, got suckered into that laissez-faire Ponzi scheme with high risk mortgages, and suffered the same fate as everyone else involved, without the benefit of a US government bailout. ) In other words, our standard of living is NOT still higher than most Western European countries or Canadas, and hasn't been for some time. That may not play well with the jingoists, but it's documented fact. When I say "slipping relative to theirs" I mean "theirs is higher AND rising faster" not "ours is still higher but theirs is rising faster. "
The Western European living standard isn't rising RELATIVE TO AMERICA because of WWII; they got hurt a lot worse than we did, and while the Marshall Plan got them back on their feet, it was well after that they began overtaking and then passing us. It's rising relative to ours and over all because while ours is, I believe, rising, theirs has long been rising more and continues doing so. Because their government policies continue to evolve and develop in the model of the much vaunted "liberal Western democracies" while America did the very thing that Europe did to allow us in front to begin: Hunkered down, buried our heads in the sand and insisted that as long as we didn't change the world wouldn't either and we'd stay on top. GDP/capita is higher in most Western European states than here (Norways PPP is about $7000 higher than ours; their nominal GDP/capita is TWICE ours. ) Life expectancy is about a year more. This despite a wave of immigration from former Eastern Bloc and African countries. Saying "oh, but their populations are lower" doesn't really mitigate that, because it amounts to saying an area with 33% more people but 5% the area can provide a higher standard of living with local rather than federal socialism. More people, less resources, less income, higher PPP GDP/capita and longer live expectancies. Maybe the way we've done things for 150 years needs updating (note: Returning to how we did things in the '20s doesn't count as an "update." )
Part of loving ones country is look elsewhere objectively and being big enough to steal a good idea or two. That's why the Germans stole tactical support bombing from us in the teens.
That his wife spent her legal career battling insurance companies and knew all their tricks was a big reason for chants of "two for the price of one" and that had a lot more than nepotism to do with her writing the Presidential healthcare plan (back then Presidents took an active hand in legislation they considered a priority.
)

Two for the price of one was not a chant that was winning back Reagan Democrats and indies. I'm not even sure if he won many of those back. 43%, that's what he got. When the clear majority of voters do not vote for you, you may be the legitimate POTUS, but it doens't mean you have a mandate for your policies.
Boll weevil Dems never really came back, nor will. That was the "Southern Strategys" final payoff so less said the better; hopefully 2008 put that thinking with its fellows on historys rubbish heap.
Maybe not a true mandate, but I think it's safe to say universal healthcare polled a lot better in November '92 than summer of '93 despite the fact the government hadn't actually DONE anything (sound familiar?) I still remember the insurance industries media barrage of "husband and wife" actors discussing the terrors of having health insurance that actually provided effective and affordable healthcare. It's stunning to see how quickly a little ad money can convince the public they don't want what they said they did.
It wasn't the sole issue for Obama, but as support for Iraq waned among Republicans while Bush belatedly and tacitly conceded McCain was right we should go loaded for bear or not at all (with the effect one might expect, though he still didn't commit as much as McCain and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs wanted in '03) healthcare along with the economy in general increasingly became the impetus of his campaign. Make no mistake, the already high and still rising cost of healthcare is very much an economic issue, and the tax and deficit hit we'll take addressing that pales in comparison to allowing healthcare to consume ever larger chunks of our GDP.
No one on the right doesn't think it's an issue, but many of us do believe that the majority of the price increase simply represents all the new options available to keep the average person alive longer and the ill person from premature death. The abuses, well, those do need to be dealt with but the problem with this bill is it didn't address the one nearest and dearest to the GOP and right next to the Dem's campaign coffers - tort reform. Reid, Pelosi, and Obama botched it. There was a mandate for reform, but that didn't mean 'their reform', and nobody trusted a bill that couldn't get a single GOP vote, well, one out of the house who then said no to the senate bill. Lot of complaints about the Bush Tax cuts, the wars, and Patriot, but lots of democrat votes for all of them. Bipartisan doens't mean an equal number, it means convincing around a quarter to half of the other side to come on board. 60 votes or not, everyone noticed the utter absence of even tentative support from any GOP. On something new and untested, people want to know that the opposition at least thinks it might be viable.
You are entitled to believe what you wish, but other developed countries have the same life saving/extending procedures we do; they just tend to be more accessible to people with little or no private insurance in those countries, and saying that people there wait for weeks or months for non-critical care they couldn't receive AT ALL here doesn't change that. It makes for nice rhetoric, but while people ARE rushing over the Rio Grande for medical care they can't get at home, at such a rate it's breaking the system, they're going TO Mexico, not FROM it.
I can pretty much guarantee you Obamas mandate wasn't "limit my damage award when medical incompetence kills my only bread winner. " The whole bipartisan thing is getting a little tired; when a minority Senator is sending out emails that completely ignore the issue or possible reforms, but urge other members to "make healthcare Obamas Waterloo" it's kinda hard to think the failure is just Democratic stubbornness. Especially when it's the same GOP that got those Dem votes for "PATRIOT" and the IWR by daring Democrats to vote against it. Again, if the loyal opposition doesn't like the majoritys proposal, make a better one (which was the great failing of Kerry et alia. ) We just recently discussed the far greater tendency of liberals than conservatives to break with their party; liberals usually want "change" which can be defined myriad ways, but there aren't many variations on "keep everything as it is now. "
Unfortunately, "reform" from the latter usually means eliminating previous intended remedies rather than addressing any of the problems that created them. Again, I find it interesting that most of the "downsize government" crowd sees to see the only valuable healthcare "reform" to be the federal government interfering with citizen juries in civil trials (which incidentally flies in the face of the spirit if not (necessarily) the letter of the Seventh Amendment. ) There are much better ways to stop private insurers raising malpractice insurance premiums (and consequently healthcare costs) then ALSO raising healthcare premiums as a direct result. I'm well aware how high a priority industry friendly tort reforms are for the GOP, not just in healthcare, but across the board, but just because they're trying to use the real demand for healthcare reform as a Trojan horse to advance that agenda doesn't mean they suddenly care about HEALTHCARE (rather than tort) reform. It's funny how we keep hearing about evil trial lawyers like John Edwards representing individuals and never hear a word about FIRMS of evil trial lawyers on retainer just WAITING for the call to come fight them.
If you think being "not Bush" was enough to win an election you need to flash back to '04, when a month before the election Bush finished behind "another candidate" in one poll and behind "ANYONE else" in another.
When a poll says Bush lost and he picks up 50.7%, the most a POTUS has gotten since his father was elected, it's more an indicator that the poll was wrong.

It wasn't just "a" poll, it was everyone of which I'm aware. And I was tracking a LOT of them, with help doing so from EVP. In fact, given that EVP does its projections by averaging all published polls (except partisan ones like PPP and Strategic Vision) and giving extra weight to the most recent, and given their election day projection had Kerry winning FL by the 5% he lost it by, it's probably best to let the matter of "fuzzy math" slide.

Kerry still lost, hence my joke that he finished fourth in a two man race. He didn't give anyone anything to vote FOR, and that made whoever could sling the most mud the favorite (always bet on Karl Rove under those conditions. ) As for Clinton, yes, Perots 20% of the vote hurt Bush, but if Clintons 43% wasn't a mandate for universal healthcare, does that mean Lincolns 40% wasn't a mandate for union? It's no different than the Deaniacs who played spoiler for Kerry, or the Naderites who sank Gore (who lost NH and the Presidency by <7000 votes, while Nader polled >3X that) or the McCarthy supporters who stayed home rather than vote for Humphrey. Heck, neither Bush NOR Gore hit 50% in 2000, so 43% in a race where a third party polls 20% nationally is a mandate. Obama was generally recognized to have a "mandate for change" but even with Omahas lone EV he was still 5 short of Clintons '92 total.
I hate to play the age card, but I probably do remember that election a little better; it was the first one I voted in and universal healthcare (which is definitely a kind of reform, but Dems back then had the balls to try to actually make a difference) was a top priority in my memory. It's been a Democratic platform plank since the end of the Second World War, but to our cost we failed to achieve it while the rest of the West succeeded, and as long as we continue to ignore it we'll continue seeing our living standard slip relative to theirs. Don't doubt for a second that was a driving force for both Clintons in '92; the difference now is that by ignoring the problem and demonizing evil trial lawyers like Hillary the problem has reached the level of a crisis in the interim. It's not going to get better if we keep ignoring it; that's not how crises work.
I hate to play the age card, but I probably do remember that election a little better; it was the first one I voted in and universal healthcare (which is definitely a kind of reform, but Dems back then had the balls to try to actually make a difference) was a top priority in my memory. It's been a Democratic platform plank since the end of the Second World War, but to our cost we failed to achieve it while the rest of the West succeeded, and as long as we continue to ignore it we'll continue seeing our living standard slip relative to theirs. Don't doubt for a second that was a driving force for both Clintons in '92; the difference now is that by ignoring the problem and demonizing evil trial lawyers like Hillary the problem has reached the level of a crisis in the interim. It's not going to get better if we keep ignoring it; that's not how crises work.
It isn't hard to demonize trial lawyers, look at Edwards.
I have. Repeatedly. The way he's conducted his personal life in the past few years is shameful and disappointing, but he's a mill workers son who earned his college degree rather than being a legacy like Bush and Kerry, and made his professional career representing people injured by incompetence and negligence, facing and beating the various firms of evil trial lawyers the responsible parties dialed up to contest that.
Anyway, our standard of living doesn't slip by saying 'relative to theirs' because theirs is still lower, and ours has continued to rise, unless you start using funky math to come up with the SoL. The only solid ways to get it are to compare GDP/capita and average lifespan, a lot of those SoL's people produce include weird and bizarre standards with little room for objective analysis. I've even seen people try to get 'percentage of land devoted to parks' in there, which is a legitimate effect, but not realistically measurable, the sort of thing people just cram in there. Has SoL risen, relative to the US's? Sure, yeah, Thank God, not hard to raise your standard of living when you're coming out of a disatrous war that took over a generation to repair and half the land was under communist rule. Now, when some country of comparable size (not Lichtenstein) actually exceeeds our SoL on an objective and not entirely short term basis, sure, then you can compare. Trying to compare and contrast with others when you're number one tends to be an exercise in futility.
Try looking at HDI, which factors both the metrics you cite (plus literacy rates. ) You may debate how it weights each one, but it's not ignoring any. We're not number one; we're number thirteen and FALLING (Norway is number one, because Iceland, almost as a nation, got suckered into that laissez-faire Ponzi scheme with high risk mortgages, and suffered the same fate as everyone else involved, without the benefit of a US government bailout. ) In other words, our standard of living is NOT still higher than most Western European countries or Canadas, and hasn't been for some time. That may not play well with the jingoists, but it's documented fact. When I say "slipping relative to theirs" I mean "theirs is higher AND rising faster" not "ours is still higher but theirs is rising faster. "
The Western European living standard isn't rising RELATIVE TO AMERICA because of WWII; they got hurt a lot worse than we did, and while the Marshall Plan got them back on their feet, it was well after that they began overtaking and then passing us. It's rising relative to ours and over all because while ours is, I believe, rising, theirs has long been rising more and continues doing so. Because their government policies continue to evolve and develop in the model of the much vaunted "liberal Western democracies" while America did the very thing that Europe did to allow us in front to begin: Hunkered down, buried our heads in the sand and insisted that as long as we didn't change the world wouldn't either and we'd stay on top. GDP/capita is higher in most Western European states than here (Norways PPP is about $7000 higher than ours; their nominal GDP/capita is TWICE ours. ) Life expectancy is about a year more. This despite a wave of immigration from former Eastern Bloc and African countries. Saying "oh, but their populations are lower" doesn't really mitigate that, because it amounts to saying an area with 33% more people but 5% the area can provide a higher standard of living with local rather than federal socialism. More people, less resources, less income, higher PPP GDP/capita and longer live expectancies. Maybe the way we've done things for 150 years needs updating (note: Returning to how we did things in the '20s doesn't count as an "update." )
Part of loving ones country is look elsewhere objectively and being big enough to steal a good idea or two. That's why the Germans stole tactical support bombing from us in the teens.

Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 05/02/2010 at 08:12:16 AM
Why bipartisanship can't work: the expert view
01/02/2010 11:34:58 PM
- 864 Views
And a personal comment
01/02/2010 11:39:28 PM
- 599 Views
Who's to say YOU really know what's happening in Washington, though?
02/02/2010 01:41:20 AM
- 631 Views
not to mention those who mistake knowledge for understanding
02/02/2010 10:41:14 PM
- 444 Views
Even so.
05/02/2010 05:45:54 AM
- 469 Views
Like the NYT?
05/02/2010 02:12:36 PM
- 502 Views
I don't believe the Times has ever conceded bias.
05/02/2010 06:03:02 PM
- 524 Views
and neither does Fox so I am not sure that matters
05/02/2010 06:40:15 PM
- 566 Views
Note that I didn't mention Fox (or anyone, for that matter. )
05/02/2010 07:13:31 PM
- 498 Views
PBS is biased
05/02/2010 07:21:14 PM
- 470 Views
You're entitled to believe that.
05/02/2010 07:31:07 PM
- 600 Views
PBS has an obvious yet undeclared bias so does NPR
09/02/2010 04:47:53 AM
- 433 Views
Even were that true (which I dispute) my statement stands.
09/02/2010 09:50:36 AM
- 545 Views
so they wouldn't be biased becuas it could hurt them but you still argue republicans attack them
09/02/2010 02:19:53 PM
- 507 Views
We have been for some time.
02/02/2010 03:31:10 AM
- 497 Views
I don't think that's the case
03/02/2010 02:59:50 PM
- 476 Views
Universal healthcare was the primary plank in Clintons '92 platform.
04/02/2010 10:02:18 AM
- 460 Views
That does not mean his bare plurality was an endorsement of National Healthcare
04/02/2010 02:09:32 PM
- 589 Views
I don't think he won by default, and that was his primary issue.
05/02/2010 08:09:50 AM
- 602 Views
Re: I don't think he won by default, and that was his primary issue.
05/02/2010 03:52:23 PM
- 558 Views
[insert witty subject line here]
06/02/2010 02:15:21 AM
- 588 Views
Let me break this into multiple replies here
06/02/2010 07:45:36 PM
- 568 Views
'K
08/02/2010 01:22:12 PM
- 551 Views
Probably time to go into 'summary mode'
08/02/2010 07:34:55 PM
- 580 Views
Again, we're back to "how would you prefer to do it?"
09/02/2010 09:42:51 AM
- 605 Views
Any way that works, which currently probably is none
09/02/2010 06:12:41 PM
- 544 Views
I think HDI is more accurate than nothing, though it certainly needs some fine tuning.
10/02/2010 11:03:08 AM
- 594 Views
I'll play a bigger age card since it was my third election to vote in and he won because of Perot
05/02/2010 05:57:04 PM
- 482 Views
Let's put it another way: Why did Dems nominate him instead of, say, Gephardt?
06/02/2010 02:22:04 AM
- 553 Views
you don't get mandates from primaries
08/02/2010 02:12:29 PM
- 452 Views
No, but end of the day more people wanted healthcare than didn't.
08/02/2010 03:09:31 PM
- 464 Views
everyone want health care they just don't want congress runnig it
09/02/2010 04:56:44 AM
- 502 Views
Whom do you prefer?
09/02/2010 10:07:39 AM
- 524 Views
Sorry not a big fan of socialism I hear it big over in Europe though
09/02/2010 02:23:55 PM
- 425 Views
In other words you prefer the system we have; thanks for admitting it.
10/02/2010 10:05:38 AM
- 484 Views

I prefer Thomas Woods Jr's description of bipartisanship
02/02/2010 02:49:06 AM
- 485 Views
If only someone had stood up on 8 December, 1941 and said, "hey, you're not supposed to do stuff!"
02/02/2010 03:28:38 AM
- 634 Views
you're making a good job taking things out of context, Joel
03/02/2010 12:47:57 PM
- 453 Views
Don't speak in absolutes and I won't read absolutes.
04/02/2010 10:08:43 AM
- 470 Views
Some qualifiers can be left unsaid for a clearer message. Or better delivery
04/02/2010 10:26:56 AM
- 453 Views

Qualifiers are clarifying by nature.
04/02/2010 10:49:06 AM
- 586 Views
huh. That does make sense. I know malpractice is a big weight on the the system in the US.
04/02/2010 11:58:37 AM
- 422 Views
Perhaps, but it's hardly the greatest weight, or even in the top three, IMHO.
05/02/2010 05:44:49 AM
- 573 Views
Pearl Harbor would never have happened to a classically liberal nation
05/02/2010 01:33:56 AM
- 477 Views
Wow - that was a dumb statement even for you!
05/02/2010 04:22:59 PM
- 657 Views
I do generally agree, but I think the Washington Naval Conference is too often overlooked.
06/02/2010 02:33:51 AM
- 594 Views
Politicians and pundits should stop calling things that happened in the last decade "unprecedented"
02/02/2010 03:23:27 AM
- 647 Views
Or the democratic party has shifted so far to to the left they can't even get all of the dems
02/02/2010 02:39:14 PM
- 455 Views
You didn't hear all the whining when Bush was in charge with a Republican Congress?
02/02/2010 08:50:05 PM
- 473 Views
I there was plenty of whining going on
02/02/2010 10:36:56 PM
- 399 Views
Is this you conceding that the GOP is being obstructionist?
08/02/2010 01:43:04 PM
- 430 Views
I agree they are obstructing the libs from doing whatever they want
08/02/2010 02:19:13 PM
- 359 Views
They've tried including Republicans in drafting bills.
08/02/2010 03:08:17 PM
- 516 Views
tyring to pcik off one republican is not including republicans
09/02/2010 05:03:44 AM
- 465 Views
So we've gone from "stop being secretive" to "no public meetings" eh?
09/02/2010 11:59:50 AM
- 473 Views
well it was your guy who was up in arms about private meetings
09/02/2010 02:29:34 PM
- 452 Views
Was it? I don't recall any Dem complaining about private meeting on healthcare.
10/02/2010 09:44:56 AM
- 605 Views
most liberals seem to foretting the "rhetoric" that Obama used to get elected
13/02/2010 06:54:34 AM
- 444 Views