I only used Mexicans because I'm from Arizona
LadyLorraine Send a noteboard - 03/03/2010 07:04:29 AM
LadyLorraine Send a noteboard - 03/03/2010 07:04:29 AM
So given that I had many friends who were hispanic and fresh out of legal immigrant families, I went with it
But you could say the same about other countries with similar or worse living conditions, which really was my point there. Mexicans/hispanics are just the group I'm most familiar with.
As I said, the only reason I used mexicans were because that's what I'm familiar with. You could substitute any applicable group, and I wasn't hinking there was some magic quota
And I'm not saying that this family shouldn't come here!! I'm just saying that they shouldn't use Asylum to do so.
I don't think they were persecuted because it wasn't public-school or die!! They could have sent their kids to ANY school for that one year. They could have picked a nice little evangelical school, or a private school that taught a curriculum they agree with. They could have, you know, thought about the fact that home schooling is illegal in Germany before their kids were of schooling age. That's always a good thing too. Think of all that time and money and horrible indoctrination that could have been saved. The fines and police-marching are shitty, but it's not like they couldn't have started the application process before they had kids, or when their kids were nearing of-schooling age. Or did they think they'd be able to slip under the radar? I don't know. Either way, I think you do raise a good point how it could be considered persecution, but it's not like Germany teaches Nazi-ism and Atheism. Unless their kids are in middle school, they wouldn't even be learning controversial things like "evolution" (which I would presume as evangelicals they'd have an objection to). In this instance, I would not call it persecution. If it was a different country, I could possibly agree with you, but in this instance, I think Asylum was totally unnecessary.
But you could say the same about other countries with similar or worse living conditions, which really was my point there. Mexicans/hispanics are just the group I'm most familiar with.Now, what we were arguing was two-fold.
1) Whether the family had a moral "right" to invoke the law. You said no, because there were other people who deserved it more. Namely, Mexicans. I pointed out that this family immigrating through use of Asylum law has no effect whatsoever on Mexican immigrants. It's not like there're ten slots every year, and once they're gone, they're gone. It's a case by case basis. Some people definitely deserve to be here more than these people, and aren't able to make it happen, for various reasons, but that doesn't mean this family shouldn't come too.
As I said, the only reason I used mexicans were because that's what I'm familiar with. You could substitute any applicable group, and I wasn't hinking there was some magic quota
And I'm not saying that this family shouldn't come here!! I'm just saying that they shouldn't use Asylum to do so.2) The morality of the law itself / the judge's decision. You said that the law shouldn't apply to people like this because they're not persecuted. Going to school for a year is "no big deal." I said that, generically, being fined tens of thousands of dollars and having policemen show up every morning to take your kids to be indoctrinated in a belief system you vehemently disagree with DOES sound like persecution. The only reason you don't think they were persecuted is that you don't agree with their morals.
I don't think they were persecuted because it wasn't public-school or die!! They could have sent their kids to ANY school for that one year. They could have picked a nice little evangelical school, or a private school that taught a curriculum they agree with. They could have, you know, thought about the fact that home schooling is illegal in Germany before their kids were of schooling age. That's always a good thing too. Think of all that time and money and horrible indoctrination that could have been saved. The fines and police-marching are shitty, but it's not like they couldn't have started the application process before they had kids, or when their kids were nearing of-schooling age. Or did they think they'd be able to slip under the radar? I don't know. Either way, I think you do raise a good point how it could be considered persecution, but it's not like Germany teaches Nazi-ism and Atheism. Unless their kids are in middle school, they wouldn't even be learning controversial things like "evolution" (which I would presume as evangelicals they'd have an objection to). In this instance, I would not call it persecution. If it was a different country, I could possibly agree with you, but in this instance, I think Asylum was totally unnecessary.
So. Nice little summary for us there. 

Still Empress of the Poofy Purple Pillow Pile Palace!!
Continued Love of my Aussie <3
Continued Love of my Aussie <3
Homeschooling: German Family Gets Political Asylum in U.S.
- 02/03/2010 10:30:01 PM
1617 Views
Looks like a win-win situation to me.
- 02/03/2010 11:01:22 PM
859 Views
Germany does have a history of getting rid of people it doesn't like *NM*
- 03/03/2010 02:08:37 PM
517 Views
Yawn. At least beckstcw was joking when he invoked Godwin's law below. I hope. *NM*
- 03/03/2010 02:10:18 PM
436 Views
That is a load of crap
- 03/03/2010 02:53:02 PM
520 Views
uhm, how would Germany be offending the US?
- 03/03/2010 02:56:52 PM
488 Views
Um.
- 03/03/2010 02:57:53 PM
364 Views
But our religious beliefs and belief in allowing religious freedom is fair game?
- 03/03/2010 03:09:48 PM
370 Views
Yes?
- 03/03/2010 03:40:30 PM
346 Views
If you made fun of the Native Americans I would be offended
- 03/03/2010 03:46:05 PM
597 Views
It's actually quite the opposite.
- 03/03/2010 03:57:19 PM
574 Views
and I would say they trying to fix intolerance with more intolerance
- 03/03/2010 04:13:49 PM
358 Views
That was probably the stupidest thing I ever saw you write
- 03/03/2010 03:28:39 PM
529 Views
You were the one who said good riddance
- 03/03/2010 03:43:24 PM
378 Views
It's the usual story of American ideology and European pragmatism.
- 03/03/2010 03:52:51 PM
536 Views
This is getting a bit off the discussion. Please keep it civil, everyone. *NM*
- 03/03/2010 06:55:11 PM
458 Views
Re: Homeschooling: German Family Gets Political Asylum in U.S.
- 03/03/2010 01:09:23 AM
1012 Views
The socialization thing is mostly garbage
- 03/03/2010 02:32:19 AM
875 Views
Yep, exactly.
- 03/03/2010 02:41:14 AM
670 Views
Re: Yep, exactly.
- 03/03/2010 03:12:48 AM
647 Views
*shrugs* I said it was anecdotal. I have no hard figures, only experiences.
- 03/03/2010 03:28:29 AM
642 Views
The operative word IS mostly
- 03/03/2010 04:33:20 AM
843 Views
'Mostly' is all that matters
- 03/03/2010 05:46:01 AM
873 Views
Uhm, socialization is incredibly important.
- 03/03/2010 06:03:30 AM
851 Views
Yes, but you don't need to be taught to do it
- 03/03/2010 06:47:06 AM
814 Views
cats aren't pack or herd animals
- 03/03/2010 06:53:02 AM
810 Views
- 03/03/2010 06:53:02 AM
810 Views
Something of an inside joke, sorry
- 03/03/2010 07:41:50 AM
825 Views
us closely associated with schools are sensitive on the issue too
- 03/03/2010 01:05:27 PM
646 Views
- 03/03/2010 01:05:27 PM
646 Views
Re: us closely associated with schools are sensitive on the issue too
- 03/03/2010 10:19:21 PM
714 Views
- 03/03/2010 10:19:21 PM
714 Views
I would agree that households with two working parnets shouldn't home school *NM*
- 03/03/2010 03:22:51 PM
442 Views
to jump on the "I was homeschooled and I have social skills" bandwagon...
- 03/03/2010 06:27:05 AM
1236 Views
I was homeschooled through grade 12, and my mom has done pro bono legal work for HSLDA.
- 03/03/2010 02:20:38 AM
802 Views
I agree that it can be a very good option for some families
- 03/03/2010 04:42:21 AM
923 Views
Re: I agree that it can be a very good option for some families
- 03/03/2010 05:16:17 AM
761 Views
It depends on the public school.
- 03/03/2010 05:23:09 AM
804 Views
Re: It depends on the public school.
- 03/03/2010 05:45:07 AM
817 Views
"done right" is not always the case
- 03/03/2010 05:58:26 AM
625 Views
Re: "done right" is not always the case
- 03/03/2010 06:14:43 AM
952 Views
Re: "done right" is not always the case
- 03/03/2010 06:31:04 AM
867 Views
Well let's talk stats then.
- 03/03/2010 06:55:14 AM
810 Views
please do not get me started on statistis.
- 03/03/2010 07:11:19 AM
727 Views
Your comments on public school educations have rather limited relevance to other countries, though.
- 03/03/2010 09:53:30 AM
877 Views
While I support homeschooling, this is ridiculous.
- 03/03/2010 04:48:40 AM
926 Views
Meh.
- 03/03/2010 05:20:50 AM
859 Views
one year in a public school
- 03/03/2010 05:32:13 AM
910 Views
Re: one year in a public school
- 03/03/2010 05:58:48 AM
668 Views
No, I think i will nitpick.
- 03/03/2010 06:11:44 AM
817 Views
This is getting off track and wasting time.
- 03/03/2010 06:26:36 AM
841 Views
I'm not even certain it's 100% legal.
- 03/03/2010 06:34:44 AM
617 Views
Yes, but we can't argue abuse of law.
- 03/03/2010 06:51:23 AM
741 Views
I only used Mexicans because I'm from Arizona
- 03/03/2010 07:04:29 AM
873 Views
- 03/03/2010 07:04:29 AM
873 Views
I think I have the gist of it,
- 03/03/2010 07:17:40 AM
751 Views
we haven't heard anything about their beliefs for me to think they're stupid.
- 03/03/2010 02:54:25 PM
856 Views
According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung...
- 03/03/2010 03:38:13 PM
760 Views
Say what?
- 03/03/2010 09:38:40 AM
721 Views
Being able raise your kids by your beliefs is a frivolous matter?
- 03/03/2010 03:21:23 PM
656 Views
Germany is not saying "you can't raise your kids by your beliefs"
- 03/03/2010 03:31:01 PM
765 Views
It's not a recent law, and supposedly other German families have moved to France and the UK.
- 03/03/2010 03:45:56 PM
855 Views
I think that would fly in very face of political assylum
- 03/03/2010 04:12:48 PM
813 Views
Yes, but they did not need political asylum.
- 03/03/2010 04:28:16 PM
816 Views
how is that different then other political refuges we allow in?
- 03/03/2010 04:55:14 PM
741 Views
I believe Legolas linked an article
- 03/03/2010 04:57:09 PM
725 Views
I never saw the link
- 03/03/2010 05:08:21 PM
624 Views
I'm not sure if they offered "formal" assurances or some such
- 03/03/2010 05:21:54 PM
560 Views
that was a mayor, I doubt he would have the final word on the issue
- 03/03/2010 05:46:22 PM
620 Views
You don't have a law about removing children from parental custody? At all?
- 03/03/2010 09:43:15 PM
764 Views
They can take your kids from for not sending them to school but not for home schooling them
- 03/03/2010 10:35:48 PM
768 Views
Compared to not being able to feed your kids, yes, it is.
- 03/03/2010 03:42:58 PM
645 Views
yes but we don't grant political assylum for being hungry
- 03/03/2010 04:34:23 PM
728 Views
no we don't.
- 03/03/2010 04:50:31 PM
592 Views
Do you have a better system?
- 03/03/2010 05:05:42 PM
889 Views
Immigration processes could certainly use some reform
- 03/03/2010 05:32:22 PM
692 Views
The system sucks, big government typically does not function well
- 03/03/2010 05:48:25 PM
646 Views
Oh, and did you miss the part where the federal government is appealing the decision? *NM*
- 03/03/2010 09:40:42 AM
442 Views
I would consider the threat of losing my children because of my beliefs to be a real threat *NM*
- 03/03/2010 02:54:08 PM
486 Views
Doesn't matter why, but all parents should have the right to homeschool.....
- 03/03/2010 04:48:57 AM
685 Views
That whole thing is pretty silly
- 03/03/2010 12:18:45 PM
904 Views
Re: socialising.
- 03/03/2010 06:13:49 PM
862 Views
I am opposed to homeschooling but believe it should be a legal option.
- 03/03/2010 02:32:34 PM
833 Views
I think you make a good point here
- 03/03/2010 05:22:59 PM
846 Views
but...but...parents can't educate their children outside of school!!
- 03/03/2010 05:40:30 PM
773 Views
I don't agree with them I just support their right to be wrong
- 03/03/2010 06:04:11 PM
836 Views
The statistics are flawed, as I've noted above
- 03/03/2010 07:07:11 PM
688 Views
they tend to beat private schools as well would should flatten out the demographics
- 03/03/2010 07:53:38 PM
778 Views
Your views on this are not fact-driven
- 03/03/2010 09:13:07 PM
872 Views
No, what you're saying is that my answer isn't driven by STATISTICS.
- 03/03/2010 10:36:50 PM
805 Views
Granted, but there is no obvious source for bias
- 03/03/2010 10:57:19 PM
734 Views
You mean aside from the fact that you are already arguing about it?
- 04/03/2010 12:14:02 AM
620 Views
Yes, I mentioned this in my reply to Tom, see below...
- 04/03/2010 12:19:42 AM
765 Views
And the wikipedia article you pointed me to had a different study that contradicts your point.
- 03/03/2010 10:42:54 PM
753 Views
Religious or *moral* instruction
- 03/03/2010 10:49:48 PM
812 Views
I haven't really "met" you the way I meant it in that reply
- 03/03/2010 11:48:11 PM
619 Views
Granted but for our purposes I think people on this site would qualify
- 04/03/2010 12:05:03 AM
787 Views
Umm Massachusetts did have slavery in 1717
- 03/03/2010 02:55:25 PM
730 Views
His argument on the law of Germany is a bad one generally, though, not just for that reason.
- 03/03/2010 03:31:00 PM
648 Views
Wow....so this got the board going. A question for everyone...
- 03/03/2010 06:02:57 PM
911 Views
I think it is incumbent on the state to show that kids are being in some way harmed
- 03/03/2010 06:07:13 PM
852 Views
Interesting
- 03/03/2010 06:25:43 PM
940 Views
I never said there should be no limits on what parents should be able to do
- 03/03/2010 06:38:53 PM
886 Views
I think it's safe to say teaching your kids to be little sociopaths qualifies as harm.
- 03/03/2010 09:17:48 PM
660 Views
I think so too
- 03/03/2010 10:46:41 PM
895 Views
I think the problem there was it was seen as inherently political, that, and showing harm.
- 03/03/2010 11:44:21 PM
713 Views
Yes they do. Provided...
- 03/03/2010 07:04:46 PM
754 Views
There is a reason why education until 18 (or 16, depending) is not merely a right, but a duty.
- 03/03/2010 10:00:53 PM
824 Views
Hmmph. Inappropriate action on the part of the judge who allowed them to stay.
- 03/03/2010 06:22:08 PM
786 Views
You just skip the part where they have to show they are being persecuted
- 03/03/2010 06:54:20 PM
908 Views
As I said, most people would prefer to have their safety threatened to losing their kids. *NM*
- 06/03/2010 10:14:52 PM
521 Views
*walks in, looks around*
- 03/03/2010 07:52:09 PM
863 Views
Interesting
- 03/03/2010 11:02:27 PM
850 Views

