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It wouldn't have been as sudden or extreme. Joel Send a noteboard - 07/04/2010 01:58:39 AM

As does Constantinople not falling, which was my first choice in light of our discussion above, but the flip side is that without it there's no Renaissance and modern Western culture as we know it would not exist. Ironically, Muslim territorial expansion during the Golden Age of the caliphates set the stage for Western supremacy when the Mid-East became insular.

The part about the Renaissance not happening without the fall of Constantinople, that is. Certainly, Byzantine refugees helped speed things along, but I don't think you can say it wouldn't have happened without them.

I think it had less to do with refugees than the Fourth Crusade sacking Constantinople before they left (giving the lie to the suggestion it was still a religious rather than political war, if that had ever been true. ) Maybe the walls fall to the worlds first cannon without it (probably, in fact) but the Fourth Crusade left the city vulnerable and exhausted, and the European armies carried back untold treasures on Venetian ships that seem to have been there largely for that purpose from the start. A wealth (in every sense) of art and learning was carried back to Medieval Europe from the dying city. I tend to view the Fourth Crusade like Aeneas carrying Anchises from Troy to Italy--if he'd burned the place himself first. :P
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I know I just did a survey, but this was too good to pass up. - 07/04/2010 12:44:15 AM 739 Views
Myself: World War I. - 07/04/2010 12:45:57 AM 612 Views
I don't think it's that simple. - 07/04/2010 12:57:16 AM 559 Views
I see your point. - 07/04/2010 01:02:33 AM 543 Views
Sometimes sooner is better than later. - 07/04/2010 01:10:11 AM 516 Views
True. - 07/04/2010 01:14:45 AM 519 Views
True, one might even say *adding* a war there would've improved things. - 07/04/2010 01:36:07 AM 518 Views
*nods* A small war is usually preferable to a big war. - 07/04/2010 01:49:06 AM 500 Views
The Plague - 07/04/2010 12:52:33 AM 491 Views
Re: The Plague - 07/04/2010 01:05:35 AM 395 Views
Maybe; there were episodic plague epidemics before and after that time. - 07/04/2010 02:05:18 AM 536 Views
I am talking about one of the plagues not THE plague - 07/04/2010 02:50:25 AM 487 Views
Re: I am talking about one of the plagues not THE plague - 07/04/2010 08:45:26 PM 485 Views
I'm so glad you have the time and inclination to type up these replies. *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:09:22 AM 323 Views
...? - 08/04/2010 07:51:14 PM 391 Views
Sounds like he was thanking you for saving him the effort of writing a similar reply. *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:28:55 PM 345 Views
If that is the case, then great *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:30:51 PM 304 Views
The spread of Christianity - 07/04/2010 12:55:29 AM 563 Views
Huh. Wild to think about. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:06:44 AM 335 Views
Re: The spread of Christianity - 07/04/2010 08:47:06 PM 390 Views
Re: The spread of Christianity - 08/04/2010 09:29:17 AM 415 Views
Why would that have an impact on Judaism? - 08/04/2010 01:40:47 PM 491 Views
Re: Why would that have an impact on Judaism? - 08/04/2010 01:42:25 PM 322 Views
But wasn't Christianity the inspiration for a whole era of art? *NM* - 08/04/2010 01:41:34 PM 345 Views
Re: But wasn't Christianity the inspiration for a whole era of art? - 08/04/2010 01:44:36 PM 528 Views
precisely. - 08/04/2010 05:37:26 PM 505 Views
sorry, didn't see that Lorraine already addressed this. *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:55:00 PM 334 Views
The Partition of India, 1947... *NM* - 07/04/2010 12:59:32 AM 328 Views
Any paticular reason why? *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:34:54 AM 322 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:59:02 AM 434 Views
The destruction of the Great Library. - 07/04/2010 01:02:59 AM 456 Views
Internet spam sucks indeed. - 07/04/2010 01:08:23 AM 571 Views
We'll never know; makes for fascinating speculative fiction. - 07/04/2010 01:13:49 AM 501 Views
This whole topic is wild, it's something I sometimes think about. - 07/04/2010 01:17:50 AM 496 Views
Ya, that's what makes history so gripping. - 07/04/2010 01:19:54 AM 600 Views
I don't know if that's really true... - 07/04/2010 01:39:51 AM 508 Views
It wouldn't have been as sudden or extreme. - 07/04/2010 01:58:39 AM 544 Views
"Joel captures Alexandria! The Great Library is destroyed!" *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:08:35 AM 204 Views
NOOOO1111 - 07/04/2010 01:11:33 AM 412 Views
A shame. It's one of the better ones, too. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:14:20 AM 326 Views
Not in the first two Civs. - 07/04/2010 01:22:43 AM 361 Views
Civ, i love that game... - 07/04/2010 03:01:13 AM 470 Views
Yeah that's one of the small annoying things - 07/04/2010 07:34:52 AM 355 Views
An interesting point - 07/04/2010 02:57:03 AM 522 Views
That's usually my reply to this question too *NM* - 07/04/2010 11:42:55 AM 307 Views
if the giant meteor hadn't destroyed the dinosaurs... - 07/04/2010 01:10:42 AM 418 Views
"FOR" global warming? Now there's a phrase I never thought I'd here! - 07/04/2010 01:16:04 AM 349 Views
The spread of Islam - 07/04/2010 01:26:11 AM 520 Views
oh aren't you clever. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:47:13 AM 310 Views
There's such a thing as being right for the wrong reasons, though I'm not sure he is. - 07/04/2010 02:12:14 AM 339 Views
Wikipedia is of course not a scholarly source, but all the same... - 07/04/2010 11:57:01 AM 495 Views
Fair enough. - 07/04/2010 12:51:16 PM 489 Views
I read the Bernard Lewis article referred to at Wikipedia... - 07/04/2010 01:19:03 PM 472 Views
So it's borrowed propaganda. - 13/04/2010 09:30:39 AM 461 Views
Re: The spread of Islam - 08/04/2010 09:24:31 AM 559 Views
Haha, are you kidding? - 08/04/2010 07:59:39 PM 322 Views
Re: Haha, are you kidding? - 08/04/2010 08:50:33 PM 317 Views
Ask yourself the question... - 08/04/2010 09:33:33 PM 325 Views
I don't see the connection. - 08/04/2010 08:49:46 PM 507 Views
Re: I don't see the connection. - 08/04/2010 08:51:21 PM 374 Views
I'd better not touch this one - 07/04/2010 03:12:00 AM 531 Views
The spread of Judaism. - 07/04/2010 04:30:37 AM 462 Views
Re: The spread of Judaism. - 07/04/2010 07:31:02 AM 410 Views
I...do not know. - 07/04/2010 07:18:13 AM 390 Views
Amusing that the underlying expectation seems to be more along political history lines - 07/04/2010 12:56:49 PM 572 Views
Considering the way history is taught, is it surprising? *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:11:03 AM 297 Views
Nope, not really - 08/04/2010 10:24:54 AM 493 Views
Here's one that'll be more to your liking... - 08/04/2010 10:40:53 AM 339 Views
Yes - 08/04/2010 10:52:11 AM 463 Views
Re: Here's one that'll be more to your liking... - 08/04/2010 11:58:27 AM 367 Views
Uh... - 08/04/2010 12:11:14 PM 520 Views
Re: Uh... - 08/04/2010 12:15:20 PM 546 Views
The Devil is always in the details - 08/04/2010 12:29:25 PM 485 Views
Re: The Devil is always in the details - 08/04/2010 12:32:34 PM 290 Views
Not really - 08/04/2010 01:07:57 PM 452 Views
Re: Not really - 08/04/2010 01:10:16 PM 365 Views
Only to a degree - 08/04/2010 01:27:22 PM 464 Views
Re: Only to a degree - 08/04/2010 01:30:12 PM 573 Views
I was into cultural and religious history - 08/04/2010 01:38:24 PM 461 Views
Re: I was into cultural and religious history - 08/04/2010 01:41:31 PM 355 Views
Ha! - 08/04/2010 01:49:23 PM 502 Views
Re: Ha! - 08/04/2010 01:51:28 PM 328 Views
I'm really sleep deprived... - 08/04/2010 02:13:20 PM 616 Views
Re: I'm really sleep deprived... - 08/04/2010 02:19:07 PM 379 Views
- 08/04/2010 02:52:59 PM 465 Views
Interesting fact of the day for you two... - 08/04/2010 02:45:15 PM 367 Views
I know - 08/04/2010 02:46:41 PM 508 Views
It was nice being a "threadkiller" of a different sort - 08/04/2010 10:08:34 PM 379 Views
Quote Pyramids of Destiny FTL *NM* - 08/04/2010 10:16:21 PM 317 Views
me being born mega rich *NM* - 07/04/2010 02:15:34 PM 328 Views
Joanie Loves Chachi. - 07/04/2010 03:42:56 PM 435 Views
worse than "afterMASH"?? *NM* - 07/04/2010 03:50:10 PM 292 Views
Worse than "Joey" ? *NM* - 07/04/2010 06:48:25 PM 308 Views
If you remember Joanie loves Chachi, you might be too old? - 08/04/2010 12:00:34 AM 351 Views
Re: I know I just did a survey, but this was too good to pass up. - 07/04/2010 09:04:02 PM 370 Views
Science getting on the ball in the 40's and making superhumans *NM* - 08/04/2010 05:31:34 AM 350 Views
The spread of peanut butter and jelly. - 08/04/2010 07:12:21 AM 502 Views
The Bread of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:12:51 AM 506 Views
The dead of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:13:34 AM 484 Views
The thread of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:14:15 AM 436 Views
The head of [Roman Catholic] Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:15:21 AM 472 Views
You completely missed the "pick 1" part of the question, didn't you? *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:26:23 AM 314 Views
Well, techinically, I never said that you couldn't make multible posts, each discussing 1 thing. *NM* - 08/04/2010 05:36:37 PM 292 Views
I'm fairly sure he was just mocking someone's earlier post "just thought it would be interesting..." *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:06:56 PM 298 Views
I'm pretty sure of that too. *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:33:46 PM 301 Views
...it's pretty interesting *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:35:47 PM 354 Views
just as you thought it would be? *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:44:49 PM 295 Views
My parody. - 08/04/2010 10:41:29 PM 449 Views
Re: My parody. - 09/04/2010 07:29:19 AM 527 Views
The 1987 Rugby World Cup Final - 13/04/2010 12:23:17 PM 537 Views

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