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Re: Suvorov thought the Soviet main attack would be in the far north and south Cannoli Send a noteboard - 07/05/2017 06:55:41 PM

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There was one sector on the German side of the June 1941 border that gave the Soviets serious problems - East Prussia. It was similar, if not as bad, as Pripet/Polesye, and the Germans had numerous fortified positions that had been theirs for centuries. The Soviets therefore came to the conclusion that the better way to invade would be to repeat the Finnish invasion but with the vast majority of forces in the far north where the terrain was tundra rather than taiga mixed in with marshes and lakes to cut off the iron ore and tungsten supplies to Hitler from Sweden and Petsamo, and in the South to immediately cut off Ploesti and its oil.
Just for clarification, are you saying that a second invasaion of Finland was on the agenda as well for 1941, to basically try to achieve the Allied objectives for Norway, but from the East? Or were you just comparing the projected Germany campaign with the way they went for both the population center, and the northern resources, i.e. the Baltic coast? One thing I find exasperating is the way so many writers sympathetic to the Finnish cause get huffy about the Continuation War with the whole "how dare they get in bed with the Nazis!" moralizing. But if Stalin let the Finns walk away with so much in the peace (relatively speaking, of course; the Finnish concessions were horrific, but they retained their independance unlike every other European country [Norway doesn't count] bordering the USSR), because he was planning a second go-round to retake the only Czarist province to elude his grasp, once Germany was otherwise engaged, that should quell even the most sanctimonious objections to Finland's subsequent alliance.

Actually, that might also explain why Stalin would allow a former Russian province to retain its sovereignty, namely, that he did not intend to, but the Finns proved too troublesome to hold down while also fighting Germany, especially in light of the interest in Finland's cause lethargically stirring to life in the West.


It was the failed invasion of Finland and the occupation of Bessarabia/Moldova in 1940 that showed Hitler he was running out of time on those fronts. Losing either Ploesti or the Swedish ore supplies would seriously compromise Germany's ability to wage war (as it did in late 1944 - the Ardennes Offensive with enough oil could conceivably have prolonged the war).
Molotov's behavior was another signal, acting as brusquely toward his German counterparts as he might toward Soviet subordinates. There was a difference in most civilized minds (and I do not except Hitler from that category, as his sins are of a kind) between "falling into one's sphere of influence" and outright annexation. Stalin was behaving like a greedy bully, rather than applying the same sort of influence Hitler used in Eastern Europe. The lack of the minimal affected delicacy the Nazis used suggested the Soviets were aiming at something bigger and the Romanian and Baltic seizures were merely prefunctory stepping stones.

As for the economic threats, that was one area in which Hitler was preoccupied, often to the chagrin of his generals who were focussed solely on military problems (the Reichsheer having weeded out potential Ludendorffs who did fight to conquer, rather than solve a technical exercise of defeating the enemy). He called off the offensives in Operation Citadel, despite the fact that they were advancing successfully, and the Russians having thrown almost all their chips into that pot with not much left if Manstein & Model could keep going or even link up. The reason he gave Manstein was that the fall of Sicily and the imminent invasion of Italy made Ploesti vulnerable to Allied bombers operating out of Italy, or an invasion across the Adriatic. He approved the extremely risky Norwegian gambit, despite his uncertainty regarding naval operations, to protect the Swedish iron, and while the Avranche & Ardennes counterattacks were probably mostly desperate attempts to achieve moral victories and dissuade the American people & politicians from prosecuting the war, trying to retain France and its own contributions to German production had to have also been a part of it.



I'm now reading Hoffmann's book on General Vlasov and wondering what would have happened if the Germans in 1941 had framed the war as a war of liberation against the Soviets with the aim of re-establishing some Tsarist or dictatorial power that was anti-communist. Even if the Germans had smashed through to Moscow, the sheer number of troops that would be needed to occupy Russia would have been so great that it would have effectively killed the German economy due to the number of troops in the standing army (not just the direct cost of paying the soldiers, but also the lost people at farms and factories - although slave labor could have supplemented some losses, jobs that required skilled work of any sort would still need free laborers being paid). Given the anti-communist sentiments the Germans initially encountered, had that been capitalized on it is likely the Soviet resistance would have crumbled.
I could see them letting a rump state remain nominally independant beyond the Urals, the way a number of counterfactual Nazi victory scenarios have suggested, but they'd still want an amenable authority in charge, rather than a resentful survivor of the Bolshevik regime. While they might have planned to colonize Eastern Europe with Germans, European Russia alone is an awfully big bite to digest, and one that any surviving Russian state would not want getting away. It does make Hitler's intentions puzzling, since he tended to be more politically astute and realistic. He clearly wanted to end the Bolshevik regime and seize the agricultural and mineral resources with an eye to making Germany a self-sufficient continental power, but his treatment of Vlasov suggests he had no interest in the survival of any sort of Russian state. But even the most horrific possibilities remaining seem absurdly out of the realm of physical capability. Could they actually run 170 million Soviet subjects through concentration camps? Prior to the war, Hitler wanted Poland as an ally, like Hungary and Romania, as they too had historical grievances against Russia and feared the Soviets more than the Nazis. He might have planned to turn on the Poles once he got all his use out of them, but regardless of his "betrayal" of Stalin, it was not in character with his behavior toward allies and favors done. The alliance with Stalin was nothing more than a temporary measure, and anti-Bolshevism was a dominant plank in his platform from the first. For his other allies, he frequently took actions that would have costly consequences, in defiance of the dictates realpolitik, such as his involvement in the Balkans & Africa, diverting costly resources from the Russian campaign (proprotionately small as the Afrika Corps might have been, it was one of the small number of well-equipped units on which the Wehrmacht relied at the Schwerpunkt, and commanded by one of Hitler's star generals; Rommel and a couple of mechanized division might have made a crucial difference at Stalingrad, for instance), or dropping a gift into Roosevelt's lap by declaring war on America in support of Japan. He might have underestimated his priority in the administration's war aims or the real weight of American capabilities, but he also spent the 20s & 30s harping on how foolish the prior regime had been to fight a two front war, so he could not have been insensible to the danger of bringing the Western Front back to life, but he gave us the excuse anyway, out of solidarity to a distinctly non-Aryan ally.

I'd think the pragmatic utility of Vlasov would have occured to Hitler at the very least, unless the same scruples that compelled him to live up to his promise to Mussolini after the Anschluss that he would never forget the favor, prevented him from making such use of a man he would have liquidated once the war was won. That still seems really unlikely.

The only thing I can think of is that Hitler really didn't believe the USSR would be much of a difficulty. On paper, he's probably right, since they came within a hair of victory several times, with Murphy's Law running rampant. The problem with the Germany military was that they weren't as good as they appeared in the 25 months or so immediately following the outbreak of the war. In some places, they won with overwhelming force, while in others, their opponents were psychologically defeated and politically checkmated. What ability and genuine proficiency the Wehrmacht actually demonstrated was likely an institutional legacy of the Imperial military and by extension, the Prussian army which created the German state in the 1860s & 70s. It was in the developments specific to WW2 that their shortcomings were exposed, such as aircraft & armor development. Contrary to popular history, they were not successful because of new "Blitzkrieg" tactics or an innovative combined arms style of fighting. The former is highly suspect in its efficacy, proposed by armchair theoreticians before the war, and like most aspects of air power, "proven" by confirmation bias, while combined arms techniques were old news, and something Germany used to great effect in WW1. Their prewar armor was crap, and the more impressive tanks developed during its course were not good products, merely more heavily armed and armored. Their aircraft were acceptable in the late 30s, but until they made the jet breakthrough, didn't improve much or develop the sorts of planes needed later in the war, and production of both types of armaments was appalling, particularly given Goring's prewar assertion that Hitler was more concerned with the numbers of weapons, rather than their quality or efficacy.

Really, Hitler got as far as he did on the basis of his insight into the moral weakness of his adversaries. Assessments of Soviet military weakness might have been spot-on, but German military capability was also illusory, to a lesser degree, and they were unable to recover from temporary setbacks before the whole weight of America was thrown into the game, and made Soviet propaganda victories stand up by providing a defeated antagonist to make the stories seem true.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Was the USSR readying an attack on Germany in June 1941?/Politics in Academia - 05/05/2017 08:02:58 PM 736 Views
Churchill was correct - 06/05/2017 01:43:16 AM 398 Views
Good post Tom..very interesting. I too find myself more and more skeptical of information these days *NM* - 06/05/2017 04:42:55 AM 233 Views
yes. exactly. *NM* - 09/05/2017 09:23:06 PM 185 Views
Agreed on both points - 06/05/2017 03:37:26 PM 512 Views
Suvorov thought the Soviet main attack would be in the far north and south - 06/05/2017 07:06:16 PM 411 Views
Re: Suvorov thought the Soviet main attack would be in the far north and south - 07/05/2017 06:55:41 PM 504 Views
You are right on all accounts - 08/05/2017 04:48:50 PM 402 Views
Interesting post. It seems like a surprisingly big thing to have such controversies about... - 07/05/2017 11:17:27 AM 459 Views
I disagree on the global warming "solution" - 16/05/2017 05:19:08 AM 353 Views
I see what you mean on the 'religious fit' part, yes. - 16/05/2017 06:33:40 PM 359 Views
It doesn't make sense to rein in CO2 emissions, though - 17/05/2017 04:06:07 AM 444 Views
Was it Bjorn Lomborg? - 16/05/2017 06:56:43 PM 351 Views
I've read a little bit on this subject too. - 07/05/2017 03:24:44 PM 422 Views
Interesting read and topic - Questions - 07/05/2017 06:29:08 PM 386 Views
Re: Interesting read and topic - Questions - 07/05/2017 08:48:59 PM 434 Views
^ What he said *NM* - 16/05/2017 05:19:53 AM 197 Views
Phh! That's a relatively minor issue - 08/05/2017 03:26:55 AM 496 Views
It's long past time to start looking at that period rationally - 16/05/2017 05:28:36 AM 311 Views
To a large extent I agree - 17/05/2017 02:36:20 AM 467 Views

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