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Sure, by the original meaning of the word. Legolas Send a noteboard - 25/09/2017 05:22:50 PM

View original postI realize that everyone these days doesn't understand nuance, and social democracy which was supported by socialist and left-leaning parties is now equated with socialism, when in fact it never was or is the ultimate goal of those parties. I get it. But that doesn't make it socialism. Socialism is state control of the means of production, and it's the goal of every socialist party out there. Strict Marxists fight for it. Marxist-Leninists fight for it. Trotskyists and Maoists fight for it. Contemptible revisionist splitters (sorry, channeling Leninism there for a second) following Bernstein and Kautsky merely agreed to fight for it through democratic means rather than open conflict and revolution, and that latter group comprises pretty much every moderate Left Eurosocialist group out there. It also includes Bernie Sanders and much of the US socialist Left (though not their fellow travelers, who are naive enough to think it's all about healthcare for everyone).

Meanings of words can shift over time - especially when a new word starts being used to represent the old meaning of the word. Yes, the USSR called itself 'socialist', but everybody else called it communist.

You may have seen some of the articles lately about how the number of young Americans professing themselves supporters of 'socialism' is growing rapidly - it's not only in Europe that the interpretation of the word as something quite separate from communism is the common one.

View original postNow, by those standards, I have yet to see socialism work. Every time the state takes something over, it becomes hideously corrupt, grossly inefficient and ends up failing. Then it either gets bailed out by the state (the preferred French method for dealing with state-controlled industry) or sold off (as Maggie Thatcher did, along with most eastern European post-communist states).

If you look at individual sectors, there are some where state ownership works well enough. Britain's privatized railways come to mind - after they privatized the industry, prices went way up, but customer satisfaction went way down. In most sectors, I agree it doesn't, and Venezuela is just a total disaster - but that goes well beyond the communist preferences of their government. Cuba is equally communist and not much of an example in most regards, but they definitely aren't as bad as Venezuela, because Venezuela's government is communist AND spectacularly incompetent.

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I don't care if Trump deputizes the Klan or outlaws Spanish; Rocket Man is worth it. Cannoli - 21/09/2017 01:00:46 AM 1223 Views
Rocket Man was hilarious. damookster - 21/09/2017 02:57:15 AM 567 Views
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Are you sure that's strategy? nossy - 24/09/2017 08:39:19 AM 546 Views
Pretty sure Tom - 24/09/2017 11:07:00 PM 556 Views
that is funny random thoughts - 21/09/2017 07:03:17 PM 635 Views
You said something similar a while back. And really, I just don't get it. Legolas - 21/09/2017 07:52:31 PM 682 Views
Oh, and just to add... Legolas - 21/09/2017 07:55:35 PM 587 Views
such as? Jeordam - 21/09/2017 08:16:48 PM 631 Views
Alright, let's see. Legolas - 21/09/2017 08:46:43 PM 633 Views
And yet....and yet....and yet.... Jeordam - 21/09/2017 09:13:30 PM 578 Views
Now I'm curious. Legolas - 21/09/2017 09:40:32 PM 499 Views
Sure, I'll bite... Jeordam - 21/09/2017 10:07:00 PM 549 Views
In the immortal words of Dennis Leary "We got the bombs" Who cares if Iran is the adult in the room? Cannoli - 22/09/2017 11:22:43 PM 606 Views
He's right on socialism Tom - 25/09/2017 12:42:26 AM 549 Views
What about market socialism? Coops are decently popular. Ocean Spray is doing fine. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/09/2017 01:28:19 AM 305 Views
Ocean Spray is not a socialist venture in any way that I can see. Tom - 25/09/2017 01:45:44 AM 612 Views
Sure, by the original meaning of the word. Legolas - 25/09/2017 05:22:50 PM 554 Views
People misuse words all the time (cf. ironic). That's their problem. Tom - 25/09/2017 07:25:55 PM 565 Views
I'm making the argument... Legolas - 26/09/2017 07:12:56 PM 636 Views
Socialists are taking it back aerocontrols - 26/09/2017 08:03:39 PM 578 Views
...democratic... fascism? *NM* Ghavrel - 26/09/2017 08:22:36 PM 311 Views
Sure aerocontrols - 26/09/2017 08:32:17 PM 557 Views
It's an interesting idea. Ghavrel - 27/09/2017 02:19:19 AM 545 Views
Sounds like Singapore to me. *NM* aerocontrols - 27/09/2017 02:33:06 AM 290 Views
See, I wouldn't call Singapore democratic. Ghavrel - 27/09/2017 05:03:14 AM 496 Views
Did you see their hilarious presidential 'election' recently? *NM* Legolas - 27/09/2017 07:55:15 AM 337 Views
*shrug* aerocontrols - 27/09/2017 01:05:47 PM 520 Views
I think that's a weakness of your spectrum argument, though. Ghavrel - 27/09/2017 11:06:16 PM 457 Views
the non military is the further stretch random thoughts - 27/09/2017 02:16:03 PM 549 Views
lol aerocontrols - 27/09/2017 02:37:00 PM 532 Views
Hmm. Legolas - 27/09/2017 06:52:46 PM 548 Views
Almost missed this reply, hiding down here. aerocontrols - 27/09/2017 09:40:41 PM 508 Views
Uh. You say no, but what follows makes it sound like yes? Legolas - 27/09/2017 11:42:11 PM 596 Views
You're again making an idiotic argument Tom - 27/09/2017 07:25:36 PM 567 Views
Which you then did your best to prove? Thank you for that, by the way. Legolas - 27/09/2017 09:13:28 PM 603 Views
No, socialist is socialist. What is so hard about that? Tom - 28/09/2017 05:05:27 AM 521 Views
I don't get it. I mean I get it but I don't get it. AgentApple - 26/09/2017 08:34:25 PM 541 Views
As if there wasn't enough getting and not getting in this thread already. Pick one! Legolas - 27/09/2017 12:13:13 AM 613 Views
I made the mistake of bothering to try reading a New York Times article Tom - 29/09/2017 12:38:07 AM 696 Views
It was a brilliant speech all around, and you don't understand Trump based on those comments. Tom - 21/09/2017 08:32:29 PM 556 Views
He's doing jack shit. He tells people everything they want to hear, then blames Congress... Legolas - 21/09/2017 08:57:36 PM 606 Views
That's absolutely not what he's doing Tom - 22/09/2017 09:54:34 PM 547 Views
If you say so. Legolas - 25/09/2017 05:31:00 PM 592 Views
I can see where you're coming from... Jeordam - 21/09/2017 08:50:03 PM 590 Views
Oh, that people voted for him over Clinton, I can understand well enough. Legolas - 21/09/2017 09:02:50 PM 493 Views
Of course I'm going to defend him.. Jeordam - 21/09/2017 09:19:32 PM 526 Views
PC is about much more than not saying things to offend people random thoughts - 22/09/2017 01:26:16 PM 581 Views
It is? Like what? Legolas - 25/09/2017 06:37:01 PM 527 Views
By the by Jeordam - 25/09/2017 07:23:39 PM 511 Views
That's a good point. Legolas - 26/09/2017 06:44:13 PM 496 Views
I get it.... Jeordam - 26/09/2017 09:00:35 PM 480 Views
Re: It is? Like what? random thoughts - 25/09/2017 08:09:53 PM 591 Views
Re: It is? Like what? ßelals Girl - 26/09/2017 02:08:17 PM 579 Views
Trump lost credibility to me on the 'anti-PC' / 'pro free speech' issue aerocontrols - 26/09/2017 07:54:06 PM 491 Views
Yes, the "snowflake" accusation is rather hard to take seriously from people upset about the flag. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/09/2017 08:24:29 PM 248 Views
Let's hold the phone here for a moment.... Jeordam - 26/09/2017 09:07:07 PM 467 Views
Too late to hold the phone! The horses are out of the barn. aerocontrols - 26/09/2017 09:20:06 PM 508 Views
Yeah. And not just Trump. Legolas - 26/09/2017 11:59:05 PM 473 Views
Re: Yeah. And not just Trump. aerocontrols - 27/09/2017 02:27:40 AM 504 Views
keep it in one thread n00b damookster - 27/09/2017 02:52:55 AM 545 Views
I saw a statistic somewhere in an article about the controversy... Legolas - 27/09/2017 06:47:04 PM 490 Views
80% of the players may be black but a similar percentage of the fans are white random thoughts - 28/09/2017 12:59:57 PM 496 Views
Makes sense. But if 80 percent of your players is taking the other position... Legolas - 28/09/2017 06:43:23 PM 793 Views
Don't confuse PC with social norms random thoughts - 27/09/2017 02:21:49 PM 462 Views
So... aerocontrols - 27/09/2017 02:39:01 PM 513 Views
and it has been very affective random thoughts - 28/09/2017 12:55:06 PM 530 Views
Re: You said something similar a while back. And really, I just don't get it. Cannoli - 22/09/2017 11:59:19 PM 560 Views
He was in town today, stumping for Luther Strange aerocontrols - 23/09/2017 03:58:49 AM 574 Views
You're an Alabamian, huh? Me too! TyrReborn - 26/09/2017 06:05:24 PM 460 Views
I'm a Kansan, I live in 'Bama aerocontrols - 26/09/2017 06:19:13 PM 497 Views
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