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I'm making the argument... Legolas Send a noteboard - 26/09/2017 07:12:56 PM

that the word 'communism' is universally understood as referring to the state owning the means of production, whereas the original term 'socialism' is used in multiple different meanings nowadays, but most commonly the way in which all the mainstream-left parties in Europe with the word 'socialist' in their name, as well as those young Americans, intend it. 'Poorly educated' is just sour grapes from you.

Of course I can't say that using socialism in the original sense of the word as you insist on doing is wrong, but if the goal is to make yourself clearly understood, there's a better alternative. If the goal is just to score political points for domestic American consumption by trying to associate Bernie Sanders or single-payer healthcare with the mess in Venezuela, well, carry on then. That's basically what I meant with the comment about leaving the right wing radio stuff at home. Not that I was or am expecting you to agree with that point of criticism.

View original postYou're essentially making the argument that because lots of young people are poorly educated and think socialism means "any time the government does something to help people", that this means everyone needs to base their use of the word on that misunderstanding rather than using the word properly. That's such an idiotic position to take that I had to double check that you were the one making it. Maybe we should just start saying people lacking interest are "disinterested" "irregardless" of whether or not that's right now?

As for the point of principle there - I would encourage people to use words correctly, sure, but when so many people have started using a word in a different sense from the original one that the newer meaning is the dominant one, I'm not going to stubbornly keep insisting. The meaning of words can shift over time, whether we like it or not. 'Irregardless' is pretty idiotic to you and to me, but there may come a time when it's commonly accepted English.
View original postYou're also wrong on the Soviet Union. The Soviets built socialism and were working on communism under the guidance of the Communist Party. We were right to call them communists but wrong if we called their system of government "communist". The people expressed a goal of full communism, hence they were communists. They were also socialists in the sense that they believed in full state control of the means of production prior to the implementation of total communism. However, not every socialist party seeks to go on to implement communism. That doesn't change the definition of socialism.

I would go further and say that most socialist parties don't even seek to implement your definition of 'socialism', i.e. full state control of the means of production (though they may advocate state control of some specific sectors like public transport and healthcare). Which just so happens to be the primary characteristic that the world's communist regimes have in common (if I understand your reasoning, you're saying in fact the world hasn't actually seen any communist regimes, yet I dare say you understand to which regimes I refer). Hence the shift in meaning in most people's understanding of the two words.

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He's right on socialism - 25/09/2017 12:42:26 AM 633 Views
Sure, by the original meaning of the word. - 25/09/2017 05:22:50 PM 642 Views
People misuse words all the time (cf. ironic). That's their problem. - 25/09/2017 07:25:55 PM 643 Views
I'm making the argument... - 26/09/2017 07:12:56 PM 732 Views
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Too late to hold the phone! The horses are out of the barn. - 26/09/2017 09:20:06 PM 589 Views
Yeah. And not just Trump. - 26/09/2017 11:59:05 PM 574 Views
Re: Yeah. And not just Trump. - 27/09/2017 02:27:40 AM 578 Views
keep it in one thread n00b - 27/09/2017 02:52:55 AM 636 Views
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