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Which you then did your best to prove? Thank you for that, by the way. Legolas Send a noteboard - 27/09/2017 09:13:28 PM

View original postYou're saying now, "Well, I'm talking about the platforms of parties that have the word 'socialist' in their name as a historic relic." That's like trying to talk about communism through the lens of the current policies of the Chinese Communist Party. "But, but, they have the word 'communist' in their name so when we talk about communists we should keep them in mind, not the guys who murdered everyone!" Seriously, listen to yourself. You used to have some logical backing for your points.

I'm talking about the platforms of parties that have the word socialist in their name, full stop. Who are regularly and unambiguously referred to by both supporters and opponents as socialists, and there's no 'historic relic' about that. You were so kind as to provide that list and to illustrate my point about what 'socialist' means in a modern context, and that those people who actually do still believe in public ownership of the means of production are to be found in parties which call themselves communist, like the PCF.

Though I would add that there are simply very few people left who hold that belief at all; on the one hand most of the key communist regimes have either lost power or embraced private enterprise to at least a significant extent, and on the other hand many communist parties in Western democracies have gradually weakened their position to a point where they at least tacitly gave up that principle and became essentially ex-communist parties (the PCF may or may not be among those, haven't studied them closely). They may still exist and in some cases (Wallonia is an interesting case in point right now) even flourish as a further-left alternative to the mainstream socialist party, but their party programs no longer advocates public ownership of the means of production, excepting a few specific sectors.

Frankly, I don't need 'logical backing' when discussing simple facts. Maybe it's not 'logical' for the word to have the meaning it has, but it does so anyway. I will admit that in the US the meaning of the word seems to be more ambiguous, which to some extent I was aware of but I may have underestimated it, going by aero's reply. Still, since I originally brought this up in the context of Trump's speech at the UN and international reception of his words, that point stands.


View original postWe have a wide range of specific and clear terms that we can use. We can call a party "communist" if it is striving not just for socialism, but ultimately for a pure communist society. We can call it "socialist" when it wants to have the control of the means of production in the hands of the state. If that party puts a premium on representative democracy, we can call it "democratic socialist". If it favors a policy of taxing industry and individuals at high rates to support social programs, we call it "social democratic". If it supports only a safety net, we tend to call it "market democratic". This is clear and easily understood by anyone who has a sufficiently moderate grasp of politics.

You're obviously free to use those definitions yourself, but you're delusional if you think that everyone who 'has a sufficiently moderate grasp of politics' would use those terms in the precise way you use them here. Especially considering you just compiled that analysis of various European party names and programs yourself.

Oh, and also: you forgot to mention that the German SPD has called itself 'social democratic' rather than socialist since 1890, so that includes a long period of time when it did in fact embrace Marxist ideals.

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I don't care if Trump deputizes the Klan or outlaws Spanish; Rocket Man is worth it. - 21/09/2017 01:00:46 AM 1121 Views
Rocket Man was hilarious. - 21/09/2017 02:57:15 AM 467 Views
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Pretty sure - 24/09/2017 11:07:00 PM 453 Views
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Oh, and just to add... - 21/09/2017 07:55:35 PM 483 Views
such as? - 21/09/2017 08:16:48 PM 552 Views
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Now I'm curious. - 21/09/2017 09:40:32 PM 400 Views
Sure, I'll bite... - 21/09/2017 10:07:00 PM 446 Views
He's right on socialism - 25/09/2017 12:42:26 AM 436 Views
Sure, by the original meaning of the word. - 25/09/2017 05:22:50 PM 448 Views
People misuse words all the time (cf. ironic). That's their problem. - 25/09/2017 07:25:55 PM 460 Views
I'm making the argument... - 26/09/2017 07:12:56 PM 522 Views
Socialists are taking it back - 26/09/2017 08:03:39 PM 473 Views
...democratic... fascism? *NM* - 26/09/2017 08:22:36 PM 258 Views
Sure - 26/09/2017 08:32:17 PM 455 Views
It's an interesting idea. - 27/09/2017 02:19:19 AM 445 Views
Sounds like Singapore to me. *NM* - 27/09/2017 02:33:06 AM 244 Views
See, I wouldn't call Singapore democratic. - 27/09/2017 05:03:14 AM 382 Views
Did you see their hilarious presidential 'election' recently? *NM* - 27/09/2017 07:55:15 AM 293 Views
*shrug* - 27/09/2017 01:05:47 PM 415 Views
I think that's a weakness of your spectrum argument, though. - 27/09/2017 11:06:16 PM 367 Views
the non military is the further stretch - 27/09/2017 02:16:03 PM 446 Views
lol - 27/09/2017 02:37:00 PM 434 Views
Hmm. - 27/09/2017 06:52:46 PM 450 Views
Almost missed this reply, hiding down here. - 27/09/2017 09:40:41 PM 396 Views
Uh. You say no, but what follows makes it sound like yes? - 27/09/2017 11:42:11 PM 496 Views
You're again making an idiotic argument - 27/09/2017 07:25:36 PM 450 Views
Which you then did your best to prove? Thank you for that, by the way. - 27/09/2017 09:13:28 PM 489 Views
No, socialist is socialist. What is so hard about that? - 28/09/2017 05:05:27 AM 415 Views
It was a brilliant speech all around, and you don't understand Trump based on those comments. - 21/09/2017 08:32:29 PM 464 Views
He's doing jack shit. He tells people everything they want to hear, then blames Congress... - 21/09/2017 08:57:36 PM 496 Views
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Oh, that people voted for him over Clinton, I can understand well enough. - 21/09/2017 09:02:50 PM 391 Views
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It is? Like what? - 25/09/2017 06:37:01 PM 424 Views
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That's a good point. - 26/09/2017 06:44:13 PM 386 Views
I get it.... - 26/09/2017 09:00:35 PM 377 Views
Re: It is? Like what? - 25/09/2017 08:09:53 PM 478 Views
Re: It is? Like what? - 26/09/2017 02:08:17 PM 461 Views
Trump lost credibility to me on the 'anti-PC' / 'pro free speech' issue - 26/09/2017 07:54:06 PM 379 Views
Let's hold the phone here for a moment.... - 26/09/2017 09:07:07 PM 371 Views
Too late to hold the phone! The horses are out of the barn. - 26/09/2017 09:20:06 PM 400 Views
Yeah. And not just Trump. - 26/09/2017 11:59:05 PM 368 Views
Re: Yeah. And not just Trump. - 27/09/2017 02:27:40 AM 398 Views
keep it in one thread n00b - 27/09/2017 02:52:55 AM 436 Views
Don't confuse PC with social norms - 27/09/2017 02:21:49 PM 368 Views
So... - 27/09/2017 02:39:01 PM 414 Views
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He was in town today, stumping for Luther Strange - 23/09/2017 03:58:49 AM 475 Views
You're an Alabamian, huh? Me too! - 26/09/2017 06:05:24 PM 365 Views
I'm a Kansan, I live in 'Bama - 26/09/2017 06:19:13 PM 392 Views

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