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Which you then did your best to prove? Thank you for that, by the way. Legolas Send a noteboard - 27/09/2017 09:13:28 PM

View original postYou're saying now, "Well, I'm talking about the platforms of parties that have the word 'socialist' in their name as a historic relic." That's like trying to talk about communism through the lens of the current policies of the Chinese Communist Party. "But, but, they have the word 'communist' in their name so when we talk about communists we should keep them in mind, not the guys who murdered everyone!" Seriously, listen to yourself. You used to have some logical backing for your points.

I'm talking about the platforms of parties that have the word socialist in their name, full stop. Who are regularly and unambiguously referred to by both supporters and opponents as socialists, and there's no 'historic relic' about that. You were so kind as to provide that list and to illustrate my point about what 'socialist' means in a modern context, and that those people who actually do still believe in public ownership of the means of production are to be found in parties which call themselves communist, like the PCF.

Though I would add that there are simply very few people left who hold that belief at all; on the one hand most of the key communist regimes have either lost power or embraced private enterprise to at least a significant extent, and on the other hand many communist parties in Western democracies have gradually weakened their position to a point where they at least tacitly gave up that principle and became essentially ex-communist parties (the PCF may or may not be among those, haven't studied them closely). They may still exist and in some cases (Wallonia is an interesting case in point right now) even flourish as a further-left alternative to the mainstream socialist party, but their party programs no longer advocates public ownership of the means of production, excepting a few specific sectors.

Frankly, I don't need 'logical backing' when discussing simple facts. Maybe it's not 'logical' for the word to have the meaning it has, but it does so anyway. I will admit that in the US the meaning of the word seems to be more ambiguous, which to some extent I was aware of but I may have underestimated it, going by aero's reply. Still, since I originally brought this up in the context of Trump's speech at the UN and international reception of his words, that point stands.


View original postWe have a wide range of specific and clear terms that we can use. We can call a party "communist" if it is striving not just for socialism, but ultimately for a pure communist society. We can call it "socialist" when it wants to have the control of the means of production in the hands of the state. If that party puts a premium on representative democracy, we can call it "democratic socialist". If it favors a policy of taxing industry and individuals at high rates to support social programs, we call it "social democratic". If it supports only a safety net, we tend to call it "market democratic". This is clear and easily understood by anyone who has a sufficiently moderate grasp of politics.

You're obviously free to use those definitions yourself, but you're delusional if you think that everyone who 'has a sufficiently moderate grasp of politics' would use those terms in the precise way you use them here. Especially considering you just compiled that analysis of various European party names and programs yourself.

Oh, and also: you forgot to mention that the German SPD has called itself 'social democratic' rather than socialist since 1890, so that includes a long period of time when it did in fact embrace Marxist ideals.

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He's right on socialism - 25/09/2017 12:42:26 AM 649 Views
Sure, by the original meaning of the word. - 25/09/2017 05:22:50 PM 661 Views
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Which you then did your best to prove? Thank you for that, by the way. - 27/09/2017 09:13:28 PM 701 Views
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