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Maybe the victimhood thing is another kind of honor Cannoli Send a noteboard - 17/10/2017 01:02:43 PM

On a side note that is unconnected to Greg's article and it is just something I been thinking in the back of my mind. I am not a cultural or social anthropologist and my reading and thus my knowledge of this is limited.

But in the past some people have broken down different cultures and nations at different periods of time into groups like

1) Nations based around an Honor Code and people have to continue maintain Honor / Honour / Face in the eyes of others


Honor is just a way of getting people to cooperate. In general the two types of people who are most likely to have a code of honor are aristocrats and barbarians, two groups who lack enforcable authority over them. In general, those sorts of people can't be compelled to obey an imposed legal code, or there are large areas in which the legal code and highest recognized authorities lack the power to act, and thus there are honor codes to fill in the gaps so they cooperate for the general pragmatic functioning of society. They give such weight to concepts like face, because that is the only thing keeping the membership in line. You can't really force a powerful shogun to comply on small issues, so you use concepts like face and honor to encourage self-policing.


2) Nations based around the idea of Rule of Law / Inherent Dignity of Individuals
This is more a revelation of your prejudices than anything else. Barbarian societies tend to be much more individualistic, and honor-bound cultures are also more conservative and individualistic than others. Totalitarian states don't recognize traditional value systems, especially honor codes (there was nothing like that in the USSR or Red China, and the most honor-bound segment of German society, the military & Junker classes, were among the most intransigent opponents of Hitler, as were other traditionalists and conservatives, like clergy who were bucking Hitler's racial improvement agenda long before the Jews started being rounded up). In your mind, societies with aristocratic institutions don't respect the inherent dignity of individuals, but NO ONE did that universally. They accorded that respect to their own, and others when practical, but for the most part, pragmatic necessity made such considerations academic. If you were going to hit someone with a chunk of metal because only one of you could keep that vital piece of territory, respecting his dignity and equal value as a human being is a fatuous conceit.
And some people will now add a 3rd category of a culture of Victimhood, based around Microsaggressions / Transgressions though I am skeptical of much I have read around this 3rd group for these people can't seem to define their categories and it is very vague and nefarious.

In my experience, these people are EXACTLY like religious extremists. You can line up their arguments and criticisms precisely, if you just change the terminology. Taboos and anathemas and shibboleths are simply applied differently. They squabble over points of doctrine, and condemn others for heresies, or as infidels. Your not sharing in their values or beliefs is simply not accepted by these people, nor do they bother to provide rational explanations or justifications of their value system, merely moral imperatives. I have absolutely NEVER been given a rational reason why personal discrimination on racial or sexual grounds is wrong. I get explanations that it is against the law...but so was being gay or Jewish in other times and places. No one has EVER given me ANY reason, other than irrational moralistic dogma.
So my question is what happens to the idea of Democracy
Democracy is a myth for the simplistic & uneducated.
and such when people are unsatisfied with the status quo and they feel the need to change? For example electing a person who says they want to return the country based around the value of Honor (group 1) instead of the current status quo of Rule of Law / Inherent Dignity of Individuals which you do not need to prove (group 2)? And so on?
But that is basically what Hillary Clinton is - group 1. She and her supporters merely use different forms of honor and face. Like, right now, Mayim Bialick is sei moisev for suggesting that women should dress more becomingly to help combat the objectification of their sex. Donna Karan lost face by sticking up for her friend Harvey Weinstein. People keep exepecting Donald Trump to make acts of atonement for his own violations of the honor code.

Donald Trump comes much closer to group 2, in his assumption that his opinion, as a straight white male is just as worthwhile as anyone else's and that he has a right to disagree and criticize whomever he feels is in the wrong, regardless of how upset a third rate quarterback feels about being the latest iteration of Tim Tebow, only less popular, but with sanctified black ancestry.


What happens in the microterms, micro being the space of weeks, months, years, and time less than a decade? I want to seperate times greater than 10 years and see that timeframe as macro and you have to use a different style of language which is generational, where people and the culture is being reborn and you should not see your own humanity and individuality as it was 10 years prior, you are a different individual than your older self and the same thing is true for culture in 10+ year timescales.
That's all fatuous nonsense. Fundamental truths don't change, and neither do people. All that changes are their circumstances, and the information on which they act.
Now all of the questions I was asking and such is not really about culture of honor vs culture of law / dignity it is instead really about why these cultures often come about. People in the anthropology have theories that ideas about renewal, like can you recover and can you advance in the society do to mistakes, due to people who prey onto other people,
One of the two main purposes of law and society is to deal with the existence of that, which is a constant in human society. The other main purpose being a mechanism of cooperating for survival.
can you gain wealth and social prestige, etc influences what type of value systems that the collective population treasure and what happens when the fundamentals underneath it all change and thus people put more emphasis on specific values instead of other values for humans use a multiple value system (for example life, liberty, and property, but there are far more than those 3 but even those 3 can't be defined by a single word / thought for you have to go multiple value system for life is complicated.)
Not as complicated as that sentence. What happens, is society fragments. You can't regroup or reconcile. MAYBE, you can get rid off the people with the aberrant value sytem, but it's not likely. Burn it down and start over from scratch is really the only way.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Maybe the victimhood thing is another kind of honor - 17/10/2017 01:02:43 PM 669 Views
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I apologize before hand - 18/10/2017 01:11:59 AM 580 Views
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Jeo I think you in particular will appreciate this - 20/10/2017 09:07:39 PM 623 Views
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damn it *NM* - 20/10/2017 09:07:39 PM 342 Views
I think a lot of us are thinking about trigger warnings differently. - 21/10/2017 07:07:01 AM 631 Views
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I wonder how much the fall of communism has to do with this? - 24/10/2017 10:20:16 PM 661 Views
Definitely more than a bit. - 25/10/2017 12:51:55 PM 551 Views

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