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Maybe the victimhood thing is another kind of honor Cannoli Send a noteboard - 17/10/2017 01:02:43 PM

On a side note that is unconnected to Greg's article and it is just something I been thinking in the back of my mind. I am not a cultural or social anthropologist and my reading and thus my knowledge of this is limited.

But in the past some people have broken down different cultures and nations at different periods of time into groups like

1) Nations based around an Honor Code and people have to continue maintain Honor / Honour / Face in the eyes of others


Honor is just a way of getting people to cooperate. In general the two types of people who are most likely to have a code of honor are aristocrats and barbarians, two groups who lack enforcable authority over them. In general, those sorts of people can't be compelled to obey an imposed legal code, or there are large areas in which the legal code and highest recognized authorities lack the power to act, and thus there are honor codes to fill in the gaps so they cooperate for the general pragmatic functioning of society. They give such weight to concepts like face, because that is the only thing keeping the membership in line. You can't really force a powerful shogun to comply on small issues, so you use concepts like face and honor to encourage self-policing.


2) Nations based around the idea of Rule of Law / Inherent Dignity of Individuals
This is more a revelation of your prejudices than anything else. Barbarian societies tend to be much more individualistic, and honor-bound cultures are also more conservative and individualistic than others. Totalitarian states don't recognize traditional value systems, especially honor codes (there was nothing like that in the USSR or Red China, and the most honor-bound segment of German society, the military & Junker classes, were among the most intransigent opponents of Hitler, as were other traditionalists and conservatives, like clergy who were bucking Hitler's racial improvement agenda long before the Jews started being rounded up). In your mind, societies with aristocratic institutions don't respect the inherent dignity of individuals, but NO ONE did that universally. They accorded that respect to their own, and others when practical, but for the most part, pragmatic necessity made such considerations academic. If you were going to hit someone with a chunk of metal because only one of you could keep that vital piece of territory, respecting his dignity and equal value as a human being is a fatuous conceit.
And some people will now add a 3rd category of a culture of Victimhood, based around Microsaggressions / Transgressions though I am skeptical of much I have read around this 3rd group for these people can't seem to define their categories and it is very vague and nefarious.

In my experience, these people are EXACTLY like religious extremists. You can line up their arguments and criticisms precisely, if you just change the terminology. Taboos and anathemas and shibboleths are simply applied differently. They squabble over points of doctrine, and condemn others for heresies, or as infidels. Your not sharing in their values or beliefs is simply not accepted by these people, nor do they bother to provide rational explanations or justifications of their value system, merely moral imperatives. I have absolutely NEVER been given a rational reason why personal discrimination on racial or sexual grounds is wrong. I get explanations that it is against the law...but so was being gay or Jewish in other times and places. No one has EVER given me ANY reason, other than irrational moralistic dogma.
So my question is what happens to the idea of Democracy
Democracy is a myth for the simplistic & uneducated.
and such when people are unsatisfied with the status quo and they feel the need to change? For example electing a person who says they want to return the country based around the value of Honor (group 1) instead of the current status quo of Rule of Law / Inherent Dignity of Individuals which you do not need to prove (group 2)? And so on?
But that is basically what Hillary Clinton is - group 1. She and her supporters merely use different forms of honor and face. Like, right now, Mayim Bialick is sei moisev for suggesting that women should dress more becomingly to help combat the objectification of their sex. Donna Karan lost face by sticking up for her friend Harvey Weinstein. People keep exepecting Donald Trump to make acts of atonement for his own violations of the honor code.

Donald Trump comes much closer to group 2, in his assumption that his opinion, as a straight white male is just as worthwhile as anyone else's and that he has a right to disagree and criticize whomever he feels is in the wrong, regardless of how upset a third rate quarterback feels about being the latest iteration of Tim Tebow, only less popular, but with sanctified black ancestry.


What happens in the microterms, micro being the space of weeks, months, years, and time less than a decade? I want to seperate times greater than 10 years and see that timeframe as macro and you have to use a different style of language which is generational, where people and the culture is being reborn and you should not see your own humanity and individuality as it was 10 years prior, you are a different individual than your older self and the same thing is true for culture in 10+ year timescales.
That's all fatuous nonsense. Fundamental truths don't change, and neither do people. All that changes are their circumstances, and the information on which they act.
Now all of the questions I was asking and such is not really about culture of honor vs culture of law / dignity it is instead really about why these cultures often come about. People in the anthropology have theories that ideas about renewal, like can you recover and can you advance in the society do to mistakes, due to people who prey onto other people,
One of the two main purposes of law and society is to deal with the existence of that, which is a constant in human society. The other main purpose being a mechanism of cooperating for survival.
can you gain wealth and social prestige, etc influences what type of value systems that the collective population treasure and what happens when the fundamentals underneath it all change and thus people put more emphasis on specific values instead of other values for humans use a multiple value system (for example life, liberty, and property, but there are far more than those 3 but even those 3 can't be defined by a single word / thought for you have to go multiple value system for life is complicated.)
Not as complicated as that sentence. What happens, is society fragments. You can't regroup or reconcile. MAYBE, you can get rid off the people with the aberrant value sytem, but it's not likely. Burn it down and start over from scratch is really the only way.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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/me steals your WSE points. *NM* - 17/10/2017 12:48:08 PM 616 Views
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Old dude, you make a good point, too. - 17/10/2017 02:01:29 AM 986 Views
Authority for Authority sake is just as Mores-less as No Respect for Authority - 17/10/2017 06:07:15 AM 1058 Views
All generations experienced different cultures with different views *NM* - 17/10/2017 11:41:40 AM 563 Views
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I appreciate your amendment. - 17/10/2017 03:14:19 AM 1292 Views
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Re: no it is just hard to see the problem from the inside - uh, yes. - 17/10/2017 01:44:26 PM 1076 Views
Most of us are very good at that - 17/10/2017 08:24:50 PM 1027 Views
Thanks. - 17/10/2017 01:00:42 PM 926 Views
I disagree with relation to trigger warnings. - 17/10/2017 11:17:45 PM 1004 Views
A fair point. - Still, how far will you extend them? - 18/10/2017 12:47:50 AM 966 Views
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Nods - 18/10/2017 03:17:17 AM 935 Views
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How would you propose such warnings be worded? - 18/10/2017 09:21:02 PM 997 Views
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Stop. Now. - 19/10/2017 06:21:13 AM 921 Views
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You would ruin the literature though. And discussions around the literature. - 19/10/2017 01:21:20 PM 1003 Views
That's reasonable. - 19/10/2017 11:58:56 PM 985 Views
Well argument settled becuase they already exist - 23/10/2017 01:46:55 PM 886 Views
Fuck you Tom - 19/10/2017 07:06:47 AM 1092 Views
Oh come on... - 19/10/2017 05:12:46 PM 1030 Views
Oh please - 19/10/2017 02:10:11 PM 1037 Views
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I'm just gonna put this out there... - 20/10/2017 07:24:55 PM 981 Views
Eh, I don't think that's accurate. - 21/10/2017 07:04:58 AM 897 Views
An unnecessary tool.... - 23/10/2017 05:14:06 PM 946 Views
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I would challenge that statment.... - 24/10/2017 05:14:17 PM 1106 Views
Do you actually believe those examples are valid? *NM* - 23/10/2017 07:32:59 PM 533 Views
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Interesting article. - 17/10/2017 07:41:34 PM 968 Views
Why are some HUMANS wary of freedom? - 17/10/2017 05:31:04 AM 953 Views
Maybe the victimhood thing is another kind of honor - 17/10/2017 01:02:43 PM 1025 Views
Because it's easier to absolve oneself of power sometimes. For those people anyway. - 17/10/2017 01:10:41 PM 959 Views
I apologize before hand - 18/10/2017 01:11:59 AM 962 Views
I haven't read all the comments, so I apologize if I'm doubling up - 17/10/2017 01:06:00 PM 1174 Views
Oh those echo chambers. - 17/10/2017 01:16:40 PM 1084 Views
I hate blaming things - 17/10/2017 02:04:44 PM 1143 Views
I'm not even sure "echo chamber" is the right phrase - 17/10/2017 02:17:07 PM 1086 Views
I'm not sure that is the most common choice. - 17/10/2017 05:21:52 PM 1173 Views
I get irritated too. But I still keep them in my news feed as well. - 17/10/2017 08:49:45 PM 955 Views
Je ne regrette rien. My memes are both spicy and piquant. *NM* - 17/10/2017 11:20:55 PM 520 Views
I'm of Russian extraction. I like my food bland. Garlic, dill, salt, pepper. It's enough for me. - 18/10/2017 12:52:27 AM 926 Views
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I find him intriguing as a Captain. - 18/10/2017 01:09:07 PM 1037 Views
So now we are at episode 6 - 24/10/2017 12:31:06 PM 864 Views
6 was by far the best episode of the series. *NM* - 24/10/2017 08:07:55 PM 539 Views
Yes - 25/10/2017 12:50:15 PM 916 Views
But are your Memes brothy and fully of Umami? - 18/10/2017 01:17:07 AM 887 Views
Umami is an irritating word *NM* - 18/10/2017 04:59:21 PM 491 Views
Yes, ohdaddy is a much better word. *NM* - 18/10/2017 05:15:48 PM 598 Views
*NM* - 18/10/2017 05:39:12 PM 530 Views
*NM* - 18/10/2017 06:27:31 PM 519 Views
I do think some of this is specifically American and to a lesser extent the rest of the Anglosphere. - 17/10/2017 06:26:33 PM 989 Views
Agreed with all your points. - 17/10/2017 08:53:23 PM 1003 Views
The Netherlands, I'm not so sure about. - 17/10/2017 11:43:54 PM 959 Views
My apologies. I see Dutch and don't think of Belgium. - 18/10/2017 12:56:26 AM 998 Views
That's alright. This is a confusing country in many ways. - 18/10/2017 08:58:15 PM 966 Views
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Yes, in some ways it does. *NM* - 19/10/2017 05:38:41 PM 559 Views
Simple, true fredom is includes the freedom to fail - 20/10/2017 05:43:13 PM 1019 Views
Re: Simple, true fredom is/includes the freedom to fail *NM* - 20/10/2017 05:45:51 PM 594 Views
Yes it is the freedom to fail - 20/10/2017 06:36:02 PM 1026 Views
This entire thread was so awesome.... - 20/10/2017 07:12:46 PM 1018 Views
Jeo I think you in particular will appreciate this - 20/10/2017 09:07:39 PM 962 Views
Interesting.....wisdom from on high.... - 20/10/2017 09:58:36 PM 867 Views
damn it *NM* - 20/10/2017 09:07:39 PM 495 Views
I think a lot of us are thinking about trigger warnings differently. - 21/10/2017 07:07:01 AM 968 Views
Maybe, maybe not... - 23/10/2017 05:18:16 PM 897 Views
Glad you enjoyed it and that it provoked thought. - 23/10/2017 02:32:57 PM 942 Views
I see this as... - 23/10/2017 05:23:54 PM 926 Views
I kind of break them down into two types - 22/10/2017 03:25:04 AM 1045 Views
I wonder how much the fall of communism has to do with this? - 24/10/2017 10:20:16 PM 944 Views
Definitely more than a bit. - 25/10/2017 12:51:55 PM 892 Views

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