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All th Germans I have known have considered ß to be a letter. The Shrike Send a noteboard - 20/01/2018 11:01:40 PM

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It existed in its earliest form in Old English. Every Old English letter had a name. If it didn't have a separate name it's not a separate letter. It's almost directly analogous to the Greek sigma, which in all positions other than word final looks like this: σ but in word-final positions looks like this: ς

Is the sigma at the end of words a different letter? No. In fact, in many scripts there would be no variant and it looked like this in all positions in lower case: c (exactly like our c or the Russian s). The same goes for the Old English long s, which is not consistently used in all texts or used with uniform placement in all texts.

We don't consider variant forms of sigma a separate letter and so we shouldn't consider the variant s a separate letter. For the record, the eszett isn't considered a separate letter, just a writing convention. Like the long s (and variant sigma) it doesn't have a majuscule form. All proper letters have majuscule forms.

That's a lot of arguments against it being a separate letter. To summarize:

  1. No Old English name, unlike all other Old English letters.
  2. No majuscule form, unlike all proper letters.
  3. Analogous to Greek sigma variant and German eszett, which are not separate letters

I think your view of this is worth debating. I don't know that your arguments have swayed me about what a letter is and isnt though. Why do you consider ß to not be a letter btw?

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I have to take issue with the & and the "long s" - 18/01/2018 07:28:09 PM 532 Views
Ok, let's define what a letter is. - 18/01/2018 11:25:22 PM 577 Views
Yes, the long "s" is just a variant. It didn't have a name in Old English. - 19/01/2018 03:39:51 PM 722 Views
I don't think not having a name in Old English matters here. - 19/01/2018 05:05:47 PM 828 Views
I think it does, quite definitively. - 20/01/2018 08:46:24 PM 563 Views
All th Germans I have known have considered ß to be a letter. - 20/01/2018 11:01:40 PM 607 Views
ß is a ligature - 21/01/2018 04:04:48 PM 530 Views
That article is even sloppier than the first - 20/01/2018 09:01:33 PM 520 Views
All letters were once "fake". - 20/01/2018 10:59:11 PM 604 Views
Isn't that kind of idealist - 21/01/2018 08:02:14 AM 570 Views
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You've missed the point. - 22/01/2018 01:53:59 AM 565 Views
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You're wrong. - 23/01/2018 01:21:26 AM 614 Views
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ſ is just a variant. *NM* - 19/01/2018 03:40:53 PM 378 Views
I enjoy this thread muchly...yet I will not participate besides saying - 19/01/2018 10:46:40 PM 506 Views
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Thank all gods everywhere they are gone. - 22/01/2018 12:23:34 PM 512 Views
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All languages change - 23/01/2018 01:40:18 AM 473 Views
They change, but resistance is not futile. - 23/01/2018 02:10:17 AM 545 Views
Also, you're not talking about the language changing. You're talking about changing the language. - 23/01/2018 02:16:39 AM 555 Views
I am being a realist who understands that spellings change. Letters get dropped. Language evolves. - 23/01/2018 06:53:25 PM 590 Views
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