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All th Germans I have known have considered ß to be a letter. The Shrike Send a noteboard - 20/01/2018 11:01:40 PM

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It existed in its earliest form in Old English. Every Old English letter had a name. If it didn't have a separate name it's not a separate letter. It's almost directly analogous to the Greek sigma, which in all positions other than word final looks like this: σ but in word-final positions looks like this: ς

Is the sigma at the end of words a different letter? No. In fact, in many scripts there would be no variant and it looked like this in all positions in lower case: c (exactly like our c or the Russian s). The same goes for the Old English long s, which is not consistently used in all texts or used with uniform placement in all texts.

We don't consider variant forms of sigma a separate letter and so we shouldn't consider the variant s a separate letter. For the record, the eszett isn't considered a separate letter, just a writing convention. Like the long s (and variant sigma) it doesn't have a majuscule form. All proper letters have majuscule forms.

That's a lot of arguments against it being a separate letter. To summarize:

  1. No Old English name, unlike all other Old English letters.
  2. No majuscule form, unlike all proper letters.
  3. Analogous to Greek sigma variant and German eszett, which are not separate letters

I think your view of this is worth debating. I don't know that your arguments have swayed me about what a letter is and isnt though. Why do you consider ß to not be a letter btw?

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The Fascinating History of 10 Extra Letters the English Alphabet Used to Have - 18/01/2018 06:35:45 PM 1091 Views
I have to take issue with the & and the "long s" - 18/01/2018 07:28:09 PM 446 Views
Ok, let's define what a letter is. - 18/01/2018 11:25:22 PM 488 Views
Yes, the long "s" is just a variant. It didn't have a name in Old English. - 19/01/2018 03:39:51 PM 638 Views
I don't think not having a name in Old English matters here. - 19/01/2018 05:05:47 PM 738 Views
I think it does, quite definitively. - 20/01/2018 08:46:24 PM 447 Views
All th Germans I have known have considered ß to be a letter. - 20/01/2018 11:01:40 PM 503 Views
ß is a ligature - 21/01/2018 04:04:48 PM 451 Views
That article is even sloppier than the first - 20/01/2018 09:01:33 PM 432 Views
All letters were once "fake". - 20/01/2018 10:59:11 PM 517 Views
Isn't that kind of idealist - 21/01/2018 08:02:14 AM 476 Views
Realist perhaps - 22/01/2018 01:54:14 AM 442 Views
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No, actually that's quite incorrect. - 21/01/2018 04:14:18 PM 453 Views
You've missed the point. - 22/01/2018 01:53:59 AM 473 Views
No, I'm trying to show the qualitative difference between the two events. - 22/01/2018 04:34:20 PM 386 Views
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No, J is a lot like the long s. - 22/01/2018 07:23:01 PM 434 Views
Feels we are talking past each other. - 22/01/2018 07:52:53 PM 478 Views
You're wrong. - 23/01/2018 01:21:26 AM 522 Views
Agreed. Ligatures aren't letters. *NM* - 19/01/2018 06:13:43 AM 294 Views
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ſ is just a variant. *NM* - 19/01/2018 03:40:53 PM 332 Views
I enjoy this thread muchly...yet I will not participate besides saying - 19/01/2018 10:46:40 PM 414 Views
You're using sublime too often; it's losing its luster - 20/01/2018 12:15:10 AM 486 Views
Do I? (in regards to sublime) - 20/01/2018 12:46:35 AM 406 Views
(in regards to sublime) - 20/01/2018 03:18:04 PM 449 Views
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*NM* - 23/01/2018 09:18:01 PM 271 Views
Is this payback for the irritating word, Umami? - 24/01/2018 07:25:56 AM 351 Views
Upapi? *NM* - 25/01/2018 08:41:14 PM 308 Views
Thank all gods everywhere they are gone. - 22/01/2018 12:23:34 PM 429 Views
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I thought of removing C, as well. - 22/01/2018 06:16:20 PM 437 Views
The CH is a problem. - 22/01/2018 06:34:47 PM 345 Views
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Meanwhile if it were written as fuking kunts, no one would have any issues - 22/01/2018 07:54:41 PM 512 Views
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Scheisse. I did forget it. - 26/01/2018 05:24:21 PM 415 Views
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So . . . no Klondike bars or Kit Kats for you. - 22/01/2018 10:55:53 PM 483 Views
But it would look "fuking" stupid - 23/01/2018 01:30:15 AM 418 Views
All languages change - 23/01/2018 01:40:18 AM 396 Views
They change, but resistance is not futile. - 23/01/2018 02:10:17 AM 462 Views
Also, you're not talking about the language changing. You're talking about changing the language. - 23/01/2018 02:16:39 AM 468 Views
I am being a realist who understands that spellings change. Letters get dropped. Language evolves. - 23/01/2018 06:53:25 PM 508 Views
It is posts like this that remind me why you are my RAFO tree - 23/01/2018 10:29:53 PM 393 Views
Nope sadly he did not *NM* - 23/01/2018 10:30:09 PM 216 Views
What are you talking about here? - 24/01/2018 12:21:55 PM 410 Views
I am talking about Logograms - 24/01/2018 09:48:48 PM 407 Views
Evolution, not revolution - 23/01/2018 10:54:37 PM 539 Views

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