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Re: So then why did you use the words "Death Penalty"? fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 19/10/2018 11:11:07 PM

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Wouldn't it have correct for you to say "What actions did they take that the lethal force used against them was justified?"

First, because lethal force wasn't used against Sandra Bland. It doesn't fit a third of the people mentioned. But more, I was pointing to the fact that random thoughts's statement was bizarre for claiming their own actions led to their deaths. I was seeking to ascertain whether he thinks, had their actions been tried in a court of law, they would have been given a death sentence.


If you had used those words, then you place yourself in the position to logically and unemotionally discuss the situation. Instead, you've already miss-characterized the entire situation (incorrectly), and are already on the defensive.

I'm not sure why lethal force is a more logical or unemotional concept than the death penalty. And you still don't seem to get what I'm saying.



I didn't say that Martin had the gun. The security guy did.

And Trayvon Martin somehow got access to it, threatened him with it, then lost control of it and was shot?

But let me ask you something: you're walking home, when some guy follows you in his car, then gets out and follows you further (despite the police dispatcher asking him not to follow, I'll add). This person doesn't identify himself as anyone who has any right to follow you at all. We'll never know who initiation the confrontation between Martin and Zimmerman, but please tell me why Martin wouldn't be entirely within his rights to confront Zimmerman? After all, you've just recently said that being accused of attempted rape, and having to answer questions about it to the United States Senate, is perfectly legitimate reason for getting angry. Is such anger reserved for white men, or can a black kid being followed by a creepy guy allowed to turn around and confront the guy about his actions?



Not complying with Police Officers puts one at risk.

So does yelling at Senators on TV, but that's okay and entirely natural, isn't it, according to you?


The next element is having them fear for their safety. Why didn't she just put the cigarette out? What's the big deal? Her last one? Instead, her stubbornness starts the situation going in a bad way....

I think, rather, the point was that being asked to put out your cigarette in your own car for failing to use your indicator before you shifted lanes seemed excessive and illegitimate to her, and she expressed quite natural anger.

I find it extremely hypocritical that you don't just forgive but lionize Kavanaugh's anger at the Senate hearing, which was neither sudden, nor excessive, but think that Sandra Bland should somehow have been calm through a shocking situation where she is illogically being asked to stub out her cigarette and leave her car for not indicating a lane change.

Certainly, I hope you're not going to argue that her civil rights weren't violated.



There doesn't need to be a court involved in the decision for an officer to protect himself. They make the judgement call. They are human...which means that they can be affected by their own biases, predilections, and mistakes. Best way to avoid a bad situation? Comply with them. Do not argue. Do not try and reason. Do not try and "Get your way".

The people on the other side are human too, you know. And unlike cops, who are supposed to get training on how to deal with their biases and how to deal with stressful situations, the people who end up getting shot have no such training.

Not that being calm will save you. If you've never seen it, go see the video of Philando Castille's shooting. He was calm. He was honest. He honestly told the officer there was a registered gun in his vehicle, and when he was ordered to not reach for it, didn't reach for it and said so. His girlfriend tried to assure the officer he wasn't reaching for it, and her kid was in the back seat. Their civility was met with seven gunshots.

I've been there when one of my friends had "the talk" with her son. Most black kids get some version of it, where they are told to stay calm, told to never play with anything that can be mistaken for a gun, told to raise their hands, to cooperate, to not talk, to, if their phone is already in hand, tell the officer you're going to film this...

It was an awful thing to witness, and I won't forget the look on his face, but the talk isn't training. And there's no way to ensure that every person stopped by the police for some random thing will keep their heads. Nor is it their job to.



I do not remember them being hunted down by someone. Martin was killed while walking home by the security guy. And I don't know the Bland situation. Their actions had to have played a part in it....even if it wasn't responsible for the action. It takes two to tango.

It really does not. Walking home is not an action that you can control. What do you suggest as an alternative? Learn to fly home?

And sure, Sandra Bland could have used the turn indicator. That was undoubtedly a traffic violation. But I don't know any reasonable justice system in the world that would penalize that with jail time, and certainly not one where the cop would have any right to dictate whether she smokes in her car or not.

But I find it rich that the person who waxed poetic about due process in the entirely non-legal proceeding of a job interview is also the person who doesn't care about actual civil rights violations committed by cops, or other citizens, and expects the victims to alter their behavior to avoid the wholly undeserved consequences.

Unfortunately, yours is a thoroughly unremarkable display of privilege and thoughtless hypocrisy, these days.

This message last edited by fionwe1987 on 19/10/2018 at 11:13:19 PM
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