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So what, you think what Trump did in that phone call and the months after was fine? Legolas Send a noteboard - 20/12/2019 05:22:57 PM

You think that when Congress votes to send aid to an American ally, the president gets to make said ally jump through hoops for the president's personal purposes before that aid is unlocked? It's no different in essence from, say, a US customs officer who refuses to let an otherwise qualified tourist enter the country unless the tourist agrees to pay him money, or to wash his car, or to do his dirty work digging for dirt on the officer's enemies. Just because he's the president doesn't mean he gets to trade government resources for personal favours, any more than that customs officer. And if you believe for a minute that investigations into Crowdstrike or into Hunter Biden were legitimate US government interests, instead of personal favours for Trump and his re-election campaign, I've got a few bridges to sell you.

I've seen some Republicans arguing that this isn't proven, that somehow there could have been another perfectly legitimate reason for withholding the aid so long, that it's a perfect coincidence that suddenly, as the story became public and the difficult questions started to come, these mysterious other reasons no longer applied and the aid could quickly be sent. Which is, to put it mildly, a pretty implausible story - though it has the benefit of acknowledging that if indeed it's proven that the quid pro quo happened like Sondland says it did, that is a big deal.

I've also seen some argue that although what Trump did was certainly bad, it was not quite so bad as to make him deserve impeachment. My understanding is that the Constitution is rather vague on where precisely to draw the line, so that conclusion might be a legitimate judgement call. But then they don't get to describe the impeachment as a 'witch hunt' or 'abuse of power' or whatever, it's merely the Democrats being understandably less inclined to give the president the benefit of the doubt.

View original postAbuse of the impeachment process and separation of powers. I keep saying that every time Democrats with the White House or a house of Congress, they act like it's the last ever election, and now they can do whatever they want. Obama & Pelosi last time did away with the courtesies and respect for the issues of the majority with phrases like "elections have consequences." Well, now here's the consequences: Trump gets to do whatever Obama did. He's even held onto the Senate longer than Obama managed. They did this the last time with impeachment, too. They said it was all about sex and that sex shouldn't matter, and so Trump's character is no longer an issue. Trump asked a government of a country with which we have agreements to cooperate on law enforcement matters to look into a publicized issue of corruption. Even if it would have had a personally beneficial end effect by embarrassing a possible rival in the general election down the road, that's not an impeachable offense. Or else the next Democrat who does half the shit Obama did, will be subject to it. Obama used the IRS and FBI against the opposition. He played games with international law enforcement for political advantage. But it's sufficiently within the purview of his office and those agencies that it doesn't meet the test of innocent until proven guilty or that it was an abuse of power. Because that's the real precedent being set here, that no Democrat can ever against a Republic and vice versa. Otherwise it's all "political" and done for political gain. So the Democrats have drastically lowered the bar on impeachment, and expanded the definition of abusing one's office for political gain, because they never stop to think about what this is going to mean when the shoe is on the other foot. We went through all of this with the nuclear option on judicial confirmations, too. Obama broke that unwritten rule that Presidential candidates do not accuse their opponents of lying, and his successor ended up being chosen in one of the most personal and vicious election campaigns in memory. Democrats circled ranks around a President whose obstruction of justice was so flagrant and egregious that Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer boycotted his State of the Union speech, setting a precedent for partisanship. Hey, if you're going to get really picky about using office for political gain, Nancy Pelosi' participation renders the impeachment process illegitimate, because she's in the line of succession to the Presidency and stands to gain from removing Trump and setting a precedent for easier removal.

I won't deny that this whole process has further contributed to hollowing out the impeachment process, to the point where no president is going to be impeached for almost anything anymore, unless he or she is already very impopular and weakened. But the Republicans were the ones who started that against Clinton - with an investigation into ultimately rather less consequential matters than what Trump did. It's true of course that Clinton committed perjury and Trump didn't - but then again, Trump hasn't had to testify under oath and has fought tooth and nail not to let any senior administration official testify, either. If Trump did testify under oath, want to bet he'd find plenty of occasions to commit perjury? Although he might not consider it as such - nor did Clinton, from what I understand, what with the infamous line about what the meaning of 'is' is.

And that blocking of testimony, and refusal to hand over any related documents, would be where the 'obstruction of Congress' comes in. Based on your paragraph about that, it seems you haven't read it and overlooked that it refers specifically to him stonewalling Congress in its investigation into the Ukraine affair. Of course you will argue that it's a matter for the courts to decide to which extent the president can refuse Congress' demands for documents and testimony from government officials. Even though so far all court cases on the matter have put Trump in the wrong on this, he kept appealing so the Supreme Court will have the final say. Hence you can argue that it makes no sense to have an article of impeachment about it until the SC confirms that indeed the president must comply - and if he then does comply, it's no longer a reason to impeach. I think that's a plausible line of argument, the second article seems pretty questionable to me.

But apparently the Republicans had a different view twenty years ago on whether such obstruction should be grounds for impeachment, considering their 4th article in the Clinton impeachment:

"In responding in such a manner, the president exhibited contempt for the constitutional prerogative of Congress to conduct an impeachment inquiry," the GOP report says. The "answers are a continuation of a pattern of deceit and obstruction of duly authorized investigations."

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AOC on paid family leave makes what she thinks is a brilliant point. - 14/12/2019 05:29:47 PM 663 Views
Maybe you should go ahead and explain your objection... *NM* - 15/12/2019 01:00:40 AM 96 Views
For what it's worth, if AOC has kids they should be removed from her presence *NM* - 17/12/2019 05:58:40 AM 103 Views
Tom is calling for an abortion of AOCs kids - 17/12/2019 06:34:11 AM 223 Views
Hey now, I respect AOC. I think she should keep her mouth shut cause she's clueless... - 17/12/2019 06:18:58 PM 209 Views
I am sorry but a glib joke about taking someones kid away from them for you just do not like their - 17/12/2019 06:36:25 PM 207 Views
Get a grip Roland - 17/12/2019 06:58:01 PM 210 Views
It was a turn of phrase on the word presence - 17/12/2019 07:26:52 PM 211 Views
Oh for Chrissakes... - 17/12/2019 07:47:10 PM 209 Views
Oh I am for ridiculing AOC stupidity - 17/12/2019 08:10:14 PM 212 Views
I disagree. No one was advocating that. Period. Lighten up. *NM* - 17/12/2019 08:30:43 PM 105 Views
What's wrong with Abortion? How is it different from, say, vaccinations? - 19/12/2019 05:07:38 AM 202 Views
speaking of abortion - 19/12/2019 02:05:18 PM 217 Views
Hey, you sexist, white, cishetero, jerk: Her body, her choice! - 19/12/2019 02:39:11 PM 199 Views
Re: you sexist, white, cishetero, jerk - 19/12/2019 03:21:57 PM 216 Views
Oh for fucks sake. There is no abortion when a baby is crowning. - 20/12/2019 05:27:53 AM 210 Views
I think Tom might know NY law a little better than you. *NM* - 20/12/2019 01:22:39 PM 94 Views
The law is actually even worse than that - 20/12/2019 06:40:27 AM 210 Views
The thing with AOC is the usual problem the Republicans have had the past few years... - 18/12/2019 12:04:21 AM 216 Views
Wrong - 18/12/2019 04:50:56 PM 221 Views
Hyperbole can count as stupidity too - or you want me to believ he doesn't mean a word of it, ever? - 18/12/2019 09:35:36 PM 210 Views
I never got the "hyperbole" defense, honestly... - 19/12/2019 04:00:06 AM 210 Views
The humiliation is the point - 19/12/2019 04:16:50 AM 212 Views
WHO HERE IS A TRUMP SUPPORTER OR VOTER?!?! - 19/12/2019 05:30:11 AM 212 Views
Tom, for starters. I know you aren't. Not entirely clear on mook's exact position. - 19/12/2019 07:05:15 PM 207 Views
Re: Tom, for starters. I know you aren't. Not entirely clear on mook's exact position. - 19/12/2019 09:48:25 PM 225 Views
But impeachment/inquiries is not legislation - 20/12/2019 09:54:19 AM 219 Views
So what, you think what Trump did in that phone call and the months after was fine? - 20/12/2019 05:22:57 PM 190 Views
WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE PHONE CALL? - 21/12/2019 04:21:59 PM 189 Views
ARE ALL CAPS SUBJECT LINES THE NEW FASHION? MUST HAVE MISSED THE MEMO. - 23/12/2019 09:49:16 PM 211 Views
Oh fuck off on the caps - 25/12/2019 02:54:42 PM 197 Views
My position? - 19/12/2019 10:07:22 PM 236 Views
The question was whether or not you're a Trump supporter. Cannoli asked. I am. - 20/12/2019 12:09:43 AM 211 Views
Am I? Only indirectly. - 20/12/2019 02:28:25 AM 212 Views
What a load of BS. - 20/12/2019 05:36:44 AM 209 Views
Please fuck off - 20/12/2019 01:28:10 PM 220 Views
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How on earth were Reagan and both Bushes not conservatives? - 23/12/2019 10:09:03 PM 201 Views
Cannoli has written about this many times and done a better job than I could. - 23/12/2019 11:39:20 PM 206 Views
I would expect statements like that from Cannoli, yes, but not from you. - 24/12/2019 10:05:49 AM 217 Views
We agree on one point - 24/12/2019 03:26:45 PM 205 Views
Where do you think the support for Trump comes from? - 30/12/2019 11:54:33 PM 182 Views
Did you mean Peter? - 19/12/2019 04:42:53 AM 210 Views

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