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In fairness, if 'the US' had wanted this investigation, Ukraine could've just gotten it over with. Legolas Send a noteboard - 03/02/2020 07:56:37 PM

It's not like it would've cost them much to investigate and come up with whatever outcome the US wanted to see. Their problem, of course, was that since the issue was a partisan ploy by one party to hurt the other, going along with it would've hurt them in the near or middle term when the other party got back in power. It's precisely because they are so dependent on American support that they couldn't afford to let themselves be used as a partisan weapon.

Now, before I get into the below, let me clarify my position on impeachment. I can sympathize with the arguments that impeachment should not have happened until all the relevant court cases had run their course - the timeline would've become inconvenient to everyone involved if impeachment had happened in the summer of 2020, but so be it. I can accept the arguments that what Trump did wasn't quite bad enough for impeachment - it is a judgement call in the end. Or even the ones, like Marco Rubio's rather interesting blog post, arguing that impeachment is so politically explosive in today's political landscape that it shouldn't be pursued unless a large majority of the country agrees - although that rather implies that your presidency becomes a sort of temporary dictatorship, with a significant danger of turning into a not-so-temporary one when such an untouchable, all-powerful president declines to relinquish power peacefully when voted out of office. Just look at Turkey. And last but not least, I'm not denying earlier presidents haven't done illegal things as well, which could conceivably have been grounds for impeachment, if they had come out into the open during that presidency.

But this notion that Trump didn't do anything wrong at all, is ludicrous. And it's quite disturbing that he can get away with having his lawyers claim just that. Sure, there are plenty of Republican Senators who, while voting against impeachment, are making clear that he did definitely do something wrong - but they don't dare to make that argument loudly and clearly, openly calling the president out on his bullshit.

View original postForeign Aid has been defined by one of the few US Legislators I ever really respected as taking money from the poor people of a rich country and giving it to the rich people of a poor country. When that is going on, the rich people getting our money can damn well dance a jig if the President elected by these United States wants him to. Especially if it's a made-up bullshit country not even as old as I. Oh, Mr. President of the Ukraine, do you LIKE being a head of state, instead of a regional politician within the Russian Empire? Then you are our butt-monkey, or Putin's. You don't like it? Win a war.

If the poor people of said rich country keep insisting on voting to cut taxes on the rich people of their country at their own expense, then yeah, it's true the tax burden will fall more heavily onto them... as for who receives it, that rather depends on how competently you distribute it and follow up how it's used.
View original postBut the President did it with less than pure motives, they say. So what? What politician does NOT do anything with less than pure motives? What politician does anything with any agenda other than getting reelected? If Barack Obama had done ANYTHING against Trump as many months before the 2016 election as the Ukraine phone call was to the 2020 election, a claim that he did so to derail a possible GOP contender would be laughed at. And everyone knows he would have, if he was half as politically astute as he is supposed to be, and anticipated Trump's nomination, let alone win. He used the IRS to harass conservative organizations. Clinton used the Justice Department to harass the NYPD when his wife was anticipating the mayor of NYC opposing her Senate bid. The alphabet soup Democrats used the FBI for surveillance on their political opposition (as did Obama). The difference between them, is they were doing it to elected officials and political groups that were at least representing the interests of some American citizens, rather than a dilettante private citizen's unethical income. And it isn't like Trump needed a Ukraine investigation to smear Joe with Hunter's shenanigans, either. But even if Trump DID withhold aid (prove that it WAS delayed longer than it should have been, solely at the President's order and solely in reaction to recalcitrance on the part of the Ukraine, which is still irrelevant without the successive points proven), solely (prove it) for political advantage, because he's afraid (prove THAT, too) of a malaprop-spouting former VP, whose own party didn't consider him as a successor to his former running mate, at a time when there were other candidates getting far more attention, so what?

So that's illegal under US law, because it was aid that Congress had voted to send and the president can't block it, unless he has a discussion with Congress first about his desire to block it and the reasons why.

Trump's inclination to engage in a 'quid pro quo' is clear, even if he didn't literally use the term, already from that phone transcript. Equally clear is that, out of the many potential cases of corruption in Ukraine, he was only interested in the one that would embarrass a high-profile political opponent. Of course, just because he hinted at that during one call doesn't prove that he went through with it, the call by itself could have been dismissed as inappropriate but ultimately harmless enough. But when you see what happened afterwards, it's clear that the OMB did in fact keep blocking the funds for so long that finally the Pentagon was no longer able to pay them in full before their legal deadline, without ever notifying Congress as it was supposed to do. And also clear that the OMB only released its hold after the issue had become headline news. Whether the OMB did so on explicit orders from Trump, or more based on some indirect understanding, that's indeed not proven, and would require further testimony and/or documentation. It's also not proven whether targeting Biden was the sole purpose of the hold, that's the kind of thing that's impossible to prove - but clearly there was, at least, no other purpose which the White House was willing to state to Congress in order to block the aid in the legal way.


View original postThe President of the US has the power to conduct foreign policy. He has the power to investigate allegations of wrong-doing, and he has the discretion to select which ones (If there was an infallible triage chart for that sort of thing, we wouldn't need the executive branch). He has the power to use one of those powers to further another. He also has the right to appeal legal issues to a court. That's what checks and balances mean. Not Democrats checking Republicans, but one branch of government handling a dispute between the other two. Congress can pass laws to override Supreme Court decisions. The President can sign or veto such laws. The Court can rule on the constitutionality of Congressional actions or Presidential orders. And the President appealing a Congressional subpoena in court is that system working. Do some law professors think otherwise? Well, they can damn well get a president to believe in them enough to take the political risk of appointing them Attorney General or to the Supreme Court and then they get a say. Are there foreign policy experts who think that Trump's policies toward Ukraine are so outrageous and so detrimental to the well-being of the (only) country (that matters), that only the most venal motives could explain them, they can get themselves elected President and then they'll be able to conduct foreign policy as they wish. But during the events in question, Donald Trump was the President. Until you can show me which law directs the motives under which he must act and how he broke it, as far as I am concerned, he hasn't done anything wrong.

See above. You're going on about checks and balances, but you either don't know or intentionally ignore that this case is about the President illegally blocking Congress from spending money the way it chose to. If he had wanted to block that money from being spent, he should have either vetoed it at the time of the vote, or taken it up with Congress afterwards, or persuaded Congress to amend the law on that topic so as to give him the additional power to overrule Congressionally approved expenditures without its approval.

As for your arguments about how people should get themselves elected president if they want to question the president's decision, well, that brings us back to the Rubio argument and the stuff about temporary dictators, who can do basically whatever the hell they want as long as they were legitimately elected. Before too long, they may keep doing whatever the hell they want even after they are legitimately voted out of office - or they just rig the game beforehand so as to ensure they can't be voted out of office.

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