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Yeah, you're right, I'm reaching the limits of how much I can reply to point by point... Legolas Send a noteboard - 06/02/2020 11:39:03 PM

Also, a lot of this obviously has come up in my discussions with Tom. So I'm not going to comment on everything you wrote and will focus more on the parts that haven't come up elsewhere yet. I'll just repeat on the main point that I don't find it credible at all, absent solid evidence, that the joint US and EU policy on getting Shokin removed was all just because of Joe Biden's personal insistence on that point. Whether he boasted about that (despite having made the threats several months before it actually happened; at least Christine Lagarde's pushing on the same point happened only one month before) or not.


View original postBut it's still a technicality where the precedent is to withhold aid for all sorts of reasons, and they're only making a case about the Ukrainian aid instead of all the other aid that was withheld, not to mention by his predecessors. Because they invented a quid pro quo, which is bullshit, because Trump never made the aid contingent, Ukraine didn't know it was being held up and there is no mention of that in the transcript. And the leading Congressman on the impeachment issue lied about that conversation. Tell me that a DA lying to the grand jury about the defendant's words and concealing his main witness wouldn't have the case thrown out in a red hot minute.

Do you have any facts about other aid being withheld in such a way, by Trump or his predecessors, or are you just assuming? If you do, well, I suppose the GAO would find that to have been illegal as well. As to the other points: he implied it during the call as per the transcript, it kept being implied by the officials involved in the weeks that followed, and was also stated literally. And you seem to be behind on the new evidence, because by now it's been shown that Ukraine did know.

As for Schiff lying about it: please, please tell me you have an actual point here (if so, what did he lie about?) and you're not just repeating Trump's imbecile whining about Schiff's misguided attempt at being funny with his Trump-as-mafioso shtick.



View original postBut again, what did they do that was wrong? And isn't it the Democrats who are doing their work for them by claiming that Trump is illegitimate and a Russian tool? Free speech and political speech is not restricted to Americans in this country. Russian citizens have a right to express an opinion as well as anyone. The Russians have not "cheated" or "interfered" any more than an obnoxious heckler in the stands is cheating, interfering or affecting the outcome of a sporting event.

The Democrats doing their work for them - I agree to some extent, yes. Unlike probably many left-wing Americans, I do think Putin prefers the current heavily polarized and divided US over an alternative version in which the Democrats are largely accepting of Trump as president and consequently he can get more done.

But on the rest of it, are you serious? We're not talking about some bored Russian kids practicing their hacker arts for shits and giggles here, we're talking about the Kremlin deliberately orchestrating large-scale hacking, online propaganda and social media manipulation to exacerbate tensions and political polarization in both the US and various European countries. Setting aside for a minute the question of who they favoured or didn't favour to win the election, how on earth do you not have a problem with the rest of it?

View original postAnd it's not outrageous? Surveilling an opposition political operative is not political corruption? If asking people about their membership in Russian funded and Russian controlled organizations was the height of tyranny in America, what could possibly justify a Democratic administration using federal law enforcement apparatus to investigate an opposing campaign?

Look, I'm not going to go into that whole debate now. Let's suppose I agree with you that that is outrageous; my point wasn't about Papadopoulos himself, but about the way conservatives seem to have focused so much attention and outrage on the Trump campaign getting caught up in the investigation, that they didn't have much left for the Russian manipulations themselves. Though I suppose depending on your reply to the previous paragraph, if you genuinely aren't bothered about what the Russians did, it helps explain why you'd be far more upset about the Papadopoulos thing.

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