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Have you considered you and David Brooks may be the ones who don't fully understand? Legolas Send a noteboard - 28/02/2020 09:43:54 PM

Let me start by saying, which you already know but perhaps others don't, that I'm not a big fan of Sanders, he wouldn't be my preference in the primary and I'm apprehensive about his chances against Trump. I do think it's possible that he might win, just perhaps less likely than if the nominee were Biden or Warren.

Also, what's baffling and annoying me about Sanders is the way both his campaign and his fiercest supporters and his fiercest opponents are pretending that any of all these grandiose promises, like Mook listed in his other post, stand any chance whatsoever of becoming reality in anything resembling their present form. They don't. Everybody with any common sense can see that, because only a small fraction of the Dems in Congress are on board. So can we please stop with the ridiculous over-promising on the one hand, which will only cause a massive backlash in the event that he does get elected and can't deliver on any of it even if the Dems hold both houses, and the equally ridiculous scare-mongering on the other hand?

I do hope Sanders won't be the Democratic nominee, but if he is, it wouldn't make any difference in my preference in the general election and I find it pretty baffling that it would in yours, given that the alternative is Trump. If we were talking about a serious Republican candidate, it'd be another story. The administration and policies of a President Sanders would not be so radically different in the end from a President Biden or Buttigieg, much less from President Warren. The US still wouldn't become even remotely as left-wing as Sweden, never mind the communist scare stories like Venezuela or Cuba.

Also some points on Brooks' column below.


View original postAnd yet every day we find more old quotes from Sanders apologizing for this sort of slave regime, whether in the Soviet Union, Cuba or Nicaragua. He excused the Nicaraguan communists when they took away the civil liberties of their citizens. He’s still making excuses for Castro.

Let's get a few things straight here. The Sandinistas and the Castro regime are not the Soviet Union and are not guilty of Stalin's mass murders. They were certainly guilty of murders and human rights abuses on a large scale - but as you and Brooks know perfectly well, so were the right-wing groups that they fought against and which the United States had no problem supporting. Comparing them to Hitler like you (though, in fairness, not Brooks) do below is even more ridiculous, considering the way the Nazi regime is forever defined by the Holocaust.

Also, let's not forget that during the 1980s, the US government of the time was not just supporting the Contras, it was doing so by selling weapons to its supposed enemy Iran, while openly selling weapons to Iran's enemy Saddam Hussein - in short, supporting blood-thirsty regimes or rebels all over the globe. A left-wing mayor in Vermont praising certain parts of the Castro regime seems like rather small beans in comparison.

And it's not so strange that he would be praising certain things. Cuba had and has the usual strengths of communist countries, including the Soviet Union: very good healthcare, literacy and women's rights, compared to what non-communist countries at comparable levels of economic development had and to some extent still have today. If you're living in Cuba or Central-America and your only choices are either left-wing dictatorship or right-wing dictatorship, there are certainly solid reasons to prefer the former. And sadly, often those were the only choices.

View original postTo sympathize with these revolutions in the 1920s was acceptable, given their original high ideals. To do so after the Hitler-Stalin pact, or in the 1950s, is appalling. To do so in the 1980s is morally unfathomable.

The Soviet Union in the 1980s was, for all its faults, not remotely as brutal anymore as in Stalin's days, and Cuba or Nicaragua aren't the Soviet Union. The people in those countries who supported far-left insurgencies still had those same high ideals. As I would imagine Sanders also did. You can call that naive, but then there's a lot of naivete to go around in political ideology.
View original postI say all this not to cancel Sanders for past misjudgments. I say all this because the intellectual suppositions that led him to embrace these views still guide his thinking today. I’ve just watched populism destroy traditional conservatism in the G.O.P. I’m here to tell you that Bernie Sanders is not a liberal Democrat. He’s what replaces liberal Democrats.

I wouldn't call him liberal either, but then Americans do love to misuse that word as just a synonym of 'left-wing'. If Brooks' goal is to make people use that term more correctly, he'll get no objection from me.
View original postA liberal leader confronts new facts and changes his or her mind. A populist leader cannot because the omniscience of the charismatic headman can never be doubted. A liberal sees shades of gray. For a populist reality is white or black, friend or enemy. Facts that don’t fit the dogma are ignored.

Sanders definitely has some annoying supporters treating him like some kind of Messiah, but I don't think he sees things in white and black, or that he doesn't change his mind as new facts come to light. Or that he has such a dictatorial leadership style.
View original postA liberal sees inequality and tries to reduce it. A populist sees remorseless class war and believes in concentrated power to crush the enemy. Sanders is running on a $60 trillion spending agenda that would double the size of the federal government. It would represent the greatest concentration of power in the Washington elite in American history.

I don't think Medicare for All is viable in the US, but it's not like the idea in itself is completely crazy - and yes, if somehow it was magically implemented, the correct point of comparison would be Scandinavia, or even the UK, rather than Venezuela or the Soviet Union.

The theory behind his numbers, that the huge increase in government spending would be coupled with an equally huge if not even larger decrease in private insurance spending, hence leaving people not worse off, isn't absurd as such. Look at the UK, not a particularly left-wing country on the whole, but it has its National Health Service which is comparable in many ways to Medicare for All. But I simply don't see how you get from here to there - even if the political will to do so were fully there, which it obviously isn't and I don't think ever will be.


View original postThere was a period around 1936 or 1937 when Roosevelt was trying to pack the Supreme Court and turning into the sort of arrogant majoritarian strongman the founders feared. But this is not how F.D.R. won the presidency, passed the New Deal, beat back the socialists of his time or led the nation during World War II. F.D.R. did not think America was a force for ill in world affairs.

Uh, perhaps because America in the 1930s hadn't done the things that it did in the 1970s and 1980s? As arguments go, that makes about as much sense as 'Sanders isn't like FDR because FDR didn't do online fundraising'.
View original postSanders also claims he’s just trying to import the Scandinavian model, which is believable if you know nothing about Scandinavia or what Sanders is proposing. Those countries do have generous welfare states, but they can afford them because they understand how free market capitalism works, with fewer regulations on business creation and free trade.

It may not be precisely accurate, but it's certainly a lot more accurate than acting as if he's trying to import the Venezuelan or Cuban model. For instance, yes, Sweden does offer free college too.
View original postI’ll cast my lot with democratic liberalism. The system needs reform. But I just can’t pull the lever for either of the two populisms threatening to tear it down.

Even supposing you're equally disgusted by Sanders as by Trump, the obvious fact remains that a Democratic-led Congress would keep Sanders from implementing too left-wing policies, while the Republican-led Congress/Senate hasn't exactly been keeping Trump from doing anything he wanted to do.
View original post While I am pretty sure Sanders will be denied the nomination, and almost certain that if he were to get the nomination he would then lose in a landslide in November, I still wonder if people support his toxic vision because they don't understand it fully. Working towards making the US more like Denmark or Sweden is one thing (and one I partially support with modifications naturally) but there are other examples of socialism. Cuba. Venezuela. East Germany. And yes, the USSR. So one wonders does Sanders have authoritarian tendencies or does he want the people to support his ideas. Take Health Care for example. Sanders wants to abolish private health insurance. Does that sound like something an authoritarian would do?

Yes, I do wonder, does he have authoritarian tendencies? David Brooks keeps claiming he does, but without any evidence because he's too busy whining about Cuba. Do you have some perhaps?
View original post I have my own biases though. I've studied the French and Russian Revolutions. I know that these revolutionary dilettantes currently calling for revolution would be some of the first to be eaten by their own revolutionary "allies". It happened in France. It happened in the USSR. It's already happening within the Democratic Party as AOC seeks to challenge insufficiently liberal Democrats and replace them with more "liberal" ones.

Which is unheard of and has never happened before in either major party of the US. Definitely a sign of the approaching revolution/apocalypse.
View original post Plus, on a personal level, I definitely have my own biases against authoritarian socialism. My own family was persecuted in the Soviet Union. Denied jobs. Denied education. Faced with discrimination. And worse during the Lenin-Stalin period. I mean actual death. The governments of Lenin and Stalin killed more of my family than Hitler did. And Sanders is a man who vacationed in the Soviet Union and looks for the good side in Castro's Cuba. Now imagine looking for the good side in Hitler's Germany - those autobahns sure were wonderful.

See above re: Hitler comparisons. But certainly there are plenty of people out there who are praising the good sides of other right-wing dictatorships like Franco's Spain, Mussolini's Italy, Pinochet's Chile, Batista's Cuba, and so on. And Trump doesn't even care if a dictator is left-wing or right-wing, so long as he's interested in getting a Trump Tower in his capital city.
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No, Not Sanders, Not Ever - 28/02/2020 02:14:42 PM 538 Views
I get it....but I don't. - 28/02/2020 06:02:28 PM 185 Views
I thought I would never vote for Trump... - 28/02/2020 07:49:32 PM 215 Views
I don't feel the need to vote for either Bernie or Trump - 28/02/2020 08:56:46 PM 174 Views
Have you considered you and David Brooks may be the ones who don't fully understand? - 28/02/2020 09:43:54 PM 180 Views
Paul, your insistence that President Sanders couldn’t implement any of his agenda is getting tedious - 29/02/2020 12:21:16 AM 174 Views
Oh? Which of the things listed in your post could he do by executive action? *NM* - 29/02/2020 12:39:16 AM 74 Views
Any one he wants. - 29/02/2020 03:10:04 AM 181 Views
Agreed. Immigration is one I especially worry about. - 29/02/2020 01:16:46 PM 187 Views
That's nonsense and you know it. - 29/02/2020 07:18:10 PM 170 Views
tedious! tedious! neener, neener, neener *NM* - 01/03/2020 03:04:54 PM 69 Views
Well, as long as we're having fun, I suppose. *NM* - 01/03/2020 06:36:55 PM 80 Views
I don't think you understand just how much the executive can do through executive orders - 29/02/2020 01:12:29 PM 172 Views
Oh, it can do plenty. But no new taxes, no Medicare for all, etc. - 29/02/2020 07:59:38 PM 173 Views
...did you just compare yourself to the parties that let Hitler come to power? - 29/02/2020 09:23:08 PM 205 Views
We both know I consider your extremist left views as dangerous as extremist right views. - 01/03/2020 01:20:13 PM 259 Views
Now I'm insulted. - 02/03/2020 09:42:50 PM 182 Views
she's right Greg... - 02/03/2020 11:22:34 PM 186 Views
Thank you. *NM* - 03/03/2020 04:28:18 AM 90 Views
True - 03/03/2020 12:15:15 PM 163 Views
Did you mean this one? or this? - 03/03/2020 01:15:53 PM 159 Views
Oooh thigh highs. - 03/03/2020 02:41:27 PM 161 Views
Sanders is the worst political candidate that has had a chance at a major party nomination. - 01/03/2020 02:04:57 PM 205 Views
The lack of historical knowledge is appalling. - 03/03/2020 01:18:43 PM 174 Views
Even worse, the Left is always worse than the Right - 03/03/2020 02:54:21 PM 177 Views

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