Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ...
Shishka Send a noteboard - 27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM
Let me preface this by saying this is all just opinion. I don't think there is any evidence that proves it conclusively.
Here's a quote from RJ:
Q: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?
RJ: No.
As I understand it, anything that exists in the Real World and is reflected in TAR (whether it's a door knob, pickle, or someone who has dreamt himself there) is, in effect, insubstantial in TAR. That is, there is nothing substantial to be brought out, because TAR is simply reflecting their substantial Real World existence.
Could the TAR dreamer make a Gateway to the Real World? Maybe. But he couldn't step out into the Real World through it. Nor could someone else create a Gateway to TAR, and take the TAR dreamer out with him.
I think the only substantial things that can be brought out of TAR are substantial things brought into TAR by people who enter in the flesh (RJ's quote above doesn't apply to this situation - if it did, people who entered TAR in the flesh fully clothed would come out naked). So, if Rand stuck a door knob and a pickle in his pockets, and entered TAR in the flesh, he could leave those items there, and later go back and bring them out again. Because while in TAR, that's where those items EXIST - they're not reflections, in that case.
But a TAR dreamer doesn't exist in TAR, he exists in the Real World. What's in TAR is just a reflection of what exists in the Real World. Yes, that reflection can construct what he looks like, channel, and do other cool things in TAR, but he cannot create flesh for himself by leaving through a Gateway, regardless who made the Gateway. He can only return to his body in the Real World.
Regarding what Moggy did to Birgitte ... Birgitte's soul EXISTED in TAR (she wasn't simply reflected there, like a TAR dreamer), so Moggy was able to yank her out, and somehow that act created flesh for Birgitte. But that's a different situation from a TAR dreamer, IMHO.
My two cents ...
Here's a quote from RJ:
Q: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?
RJ: No.
As I understand it, anything that exists in the Real World and is reflected in TAR (whether it's a door knob, pickle, or someone who has dreamt himself there) is, in effect, insubstantial in TAR. That is, there is nothing substantial to be brought out, because TAR is simply reflecting their substantial Real World existence.
Could the TAR dreamer make a Gateway to the Real World? Maybe. But he couldn't step out into the Real World through it. Nor could someone else create a Gateway to TAR, and take the TAR dreamer out with him.
I think the only substantial things that can be brought out of TAR are substantial things brought into TAR by people who enter in the flesh (RJ's quote above doesn't apply to this situation - if it did, people who entered TAR in the flesh fully clothed would come out naked). So, if Rand stuck a door knob and a pickle in his pockets, and entered TAR in the flesh, he could leave those items there, and later go back and bring them out again. Because while in TAR, that's where those items EXIST - they're not reflections, in that case.
But a TAR dreamer doesn't exist in TAR, he exists in the Real World. What's in TAR is just a reflection of what exists in the Real World. Yes, that reflection can construct what he looks like, channel, and do other cool things in TAR, but he cannot create flesh for himself by leaving through a Gateway, regardless who made the Gateway. He can only return to his body in the Real World.
Regarding what Moggy did to Birgitte ... Birgitte's soul EXISTED in TAR (she wasn't simply reflected there, like a TAR dreamer), so Moggy was able to yank her out, and somehow that act created flesh for Birgitte. But that's a different situation from a TAR dreamer, IMHO.
My two cents ...
Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.
-BHT&tM
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.
-BHT&tM
Help me out with a TAR problem
- 26/05/2010 08:10:07 PM
1596 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem
- 26/05/2010 08:28:34 PM
994 Views
No I don't mean that
- 26/05/2010 08:37:27 PM
1024 Views
Re: No I don't mean that
- 26/05/2010 08:39:42 PM
875 Views
Re: No I don't mean that
- 26/05/2010 08:52:22 PM
806 Views
I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking
- 26/05/2010 09:26:20 PM
728 Views
Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking
- 26/05/2010 09:49:24 PM
735 Views
And it seems the woman wearing the bracelet has strange dreams too
- 26/05/2010 10:54:26 PM
834 Views
I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
- 26/05/2010 11:39:14 PM
761 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
- 26/05/2010 11:50:56 PM
726 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
- 27/05/2010 12:06:55 AM
734 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
- 27/05/2010 12:21:53 AM
814 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
- 27/05/2010 02:58:36 PM
787 Views
I disagree
- 27/05/2010 03:21:05 PM
767 Views
Re: I disagree
- 27/05/2010 07:08:41 PM
802 Views
If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off
- 27/05/2010 07:14:26 PM
842 Views
Re: If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off
- 27/05/2010 09:21:11 PM
937 Views
I think we are saying pretty much the same thing here
- 27/05/2010 09:24:37 PM
788 Views
We are close to the same idea, but different in where we think her ability will stop.
- 27/05/2010 09:37:28 PM
766 Views
But channelling is not a requirement to enter TAR
- 27/05/2010 08:31:21 AM
704 Views
The a'dam affects things in Channelers other than the ability itself
- 27/05/2010 01:58:34 PM
899 Views
I don't agree.
- 27/05/2010 03:02:08 PM
764 Views
you are misreading me I think
- 27/05/2010 03:11:50 PM
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Re: you are misreading me I think
- 27/05/2010 06:30:29 PM
831 Views
That's the point.
- 27/05/2010 06:57:35 PM
783 Views
Re: That's the point.
- 27/05/2010 07:10:25 PM
761 Views
Re: That's the point.
- 27/05/2010 07:16:49 PM
740 Views
Interesting idea.
- 26/05/2010 09:38:04 PM
724 Views
There may be a clue to this in the descriptions of astral projection in comics and psychic studies
- 26/05/2010 11:59:42 PM
769 Views
we've seen this fail
- 26/05/2010 08:38:06 PM
710 Views
So I think this disproves it
- 26/05/2010 08:49:55 PM
1003 Views
Is that really true?
- 26/05/2010 08:53:45 PM
780 Views
Sid, I made some edits, but really nothing's certain. Look again, pls. *NM*
- 26/05/2010 08:55:30 PM
379 Views
I would generally agree with your edits
- 26/05/2010 08:57:32 PM
746 Views
yes and no
- 26/05/2010 09:31:53 PM
654 Views
Re: yes and no
- 26/05/2010 09:55:46 PM
701 Views
5+ entries for "Book 4-6 Thing " now... Funny that we wrote slight variations simultaneously
- 26/05/2010 10:24:03 PM
703 Views
well Moghedien somehow managed to create a whole Body for Birgitte
- 26/05/2010 10:36:45 PM
767 Views
Could Rahvin turn Rand into a fishman if he was just there in Spirit?
- 26/05/2010 10:19:05 PM
732 Views
You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh.
- 26/05/2010 10:06:02 PM
828 Views
I think this is possible.
- 26/05/2010 11:28:51 PM
765 Views
Dream gateway!
- 27/05/2010 12:05:31 AM
718 Views
I think the problem is that you can only channel Spirit through your T'A'R form
- 27/05/2010 03:05:13 PM
682 Views
if you dream yourself into T'A'R then you're just a creation of your own mind
- 27/05/2010 12:02:38 AM
658 Views
if that was true you couldn't die in T'A'R
- 27/05/2010 12:08:10 AM
677 Views
I don't think anybody has said this before...
- 27/05/2010 04:01:28 AM
789 Views
Your real body can only channel Spirit.
- 27/05/2010 05:25:08 AM
805 Views
Yes, but you need real One Power to affect the real world.
- 27/05/2010 06:46:21 AM
766 Views
Yes, I agree with that, but I was mostly just replying to your question about sleep-channeling.
- 27/05/2010 06:56:18 AM
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The only real situation we have to compare...
- 27/05/2010 06:59:51 AM
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That's a weird situation.
- 27/05/2010 07:09:21 AM
742 Views
Well, yes. The Birgitte situation can't be compared directly to Sidious'
- 27/05/2010 08:01:38 AM
769 Views
Re: The only real situation we have to compare...
- 27/05/2010 07:11:45 PM
790 Views
If something that didn't exist before existed after...
- 27/05/2010 08:58:55 PM
730 Views
Re: If something that didn't exist before existed after...
- 28/05/2010 02:09:01 PM
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Actually I don't think so..
- 28/05/2010 02:31:27 PM
697 Views
Plus, their ability to affect reality comes from the magic of the Horn of Valere.
- 28/05/2010 06:14:21 PM
651 Views
TAR constructs cannot leave it.
- 27/05/2010 04:57:12 PM
920 Views
Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ...
- 27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM
849 Views
I agree with those saying that if you don't physically enter TAR...
- 29/05/2010 09:32:40 PM
750 Views


