I agree with darius. Also, 2/3rds of Rand's women
newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 02/06/2010 02:38:13 PM
represent both his link to Andoran nobility (see the Campbell book), and to his Aiel/AoL roots. And one of them is a commoner, albeit a supernatural one. They also have their own lives and interests (save Min who decided to bum around Tar Valon for a summer), so it's not fair to just define them by "their man."
Throughout the early series, we had so much talk of "strings" being tied around people. To that end, I think these 3 women tie Rand Al'Thor to both sides of his ancestry, as well as to the world in general.
More importantly, we don't know that Ilyena had all these qualities, or that she was even a channeler. LTT loved her, and a man who's totally in love with his woman describes her as having all the best qualities. Remember in TEotW, when Lan pledged his troth to Nynaeve (while simultaneously rejecting her)? He didn't mention that she was a petulant bully who couldn't stand not getting her way even when she didn't know what she was talking about. Lan of the Many Nicknames just said she was "a lioness..."
Also, IMO Elayne is the most compassionate (not quite the same as empathy, but still) of the three. Min definitely cares about people, especially average folks - but Elayne is the one who worries about folks starving and dying, even when they're not her own people. She wants to do something even when she can't - so you can tell she cares enough to not simply be absorbed by her own life.
I'd say the World itself was of a higher quality in the AoL. They had no war or starvation. They built their society so that one could only advance by benefiting everyone else. This sort of stability allows people room to be educated, and that sort of culture allows people to act "better." Still, that time period produced enough folks of supreme selfishness that some of society's biggest figures decided to screw everyone else over in order to gain power.
I also endorse darius' comments.
I think that the Pattern tries to match up the Dragon with a suitable mate - someone who will satisfy him in every way. Considering he's the greatest man in the world, he needs a woman of equal prowess.
In the AOL, the Pattern might have tried Mierin initially. She seemed to have everything except that her personality was flawed, so that didn't work out. Ilyena seemed to have been the next 'ultimate woman'. We don't know much about her, but she was in no way some cheap barmaid that LTT was attracted to. As Ilyena Sunhair, she seemed to have considerable prowess as an Aes Sedai.
I don't think that any women of equal stature occur in the 3rd Age, which is why the Pattern clumped him with three women. Even if he'd been paired with the best of what the Age had to offer (probably someone like Elayne), he would have felt unfulfilled. Women like Ilyena don't exist anymore. We've seen Egwene and Min feeling unsubstantial when Lanfear appears - and that's just from her appearance.
The three women equalling Ilyena is an old theory, but I do think collectively they are Ilyena's essence - but definitely not her soul or ancestry etc.
Aviendha - passionate, aggressive, dashain Aiel, channeler, attractive
Elayne - educated, noble, channeler, tenacious, attractive
Min - empathy, goodwill, philosophy, uncomplicated, atractive
Ilyena was probably all of these in one.
I do think that AOL women (and men) are of much higher quality. We've only really got the Forsaken to go on, so that makes evidence tough, but ignoring their evil personalities they're remarkably accomplished people in general : almost all of them are attractive, physically strong and well educated. It seems that, like channeling, 3rd Age people are a level down in quality. They're a select group in many ways, so they're poor evidence - but Rand's visions of the AOL showed that the Aes Sedai in the Breaking were generally up there too. There really wasn't much for the Pattern to work with to suit up the DR with a mate.
I personally think that Nynaeve comes closest to AOL greatness (if you believe that Age to be superior : some readers don't). She seems to be an all-round accomplished woman, which is why Legendary Lan likes her so much.
All 3 of his current women offer specific necessities the Dragon can't live without. Min and her viewing, Aviendha brings the Aiel and Elayne the AS. There seems to be Prophetic things involved with them as well ... 3 women on a boat and all that. I'm convinced there will be something else that requires there to be 3 individuals with different abilities ... perhaps the 3 become 1 thing is about them... who knows.
I doubt very much that looks or OP strength have anything to do with Rand, especially since Min can't channel at all! If the Pattern wanted a "more suitable" mate for Rand it would have spun such a woman out. The fact that it didn't tells me that the Pattern actually needed these 3 woman to be separate individuals for a specific reason.
On a side note I find it rather funny that you think Mierin was the "ultimate woman", except for that pesky personality which lead her to be one of the most evil beings of all time ... beauty and OP strength do not make someone "higher quality", IMO she's one of the most flawed characters in the books. So much so that ALL she is is beauty and OP strength. Painfully cliche actually.
Early in the series I thought she was a great character, but over the years I've lost all interest in her because she's kind of pathetic, this is a person who could have done anything she wanted but instead acts like a spoiled child and completely focuses on what she can't have. She's also become so completely predictable that she's not even fun to read about anymore. Personally I'm glad that she's Mindtrapped, at least that way she's got errands to run and stays out of the way.
Throughout the early series, we had so much talk of "strings" being tied around people. To that end, I think these 3 women tie Rand Al'Thor to both sides of his ancestry, as well as to the world in general.
More importantly, we don't know that Ilyena had all these qualities, or that she was even a channeler. LTT loved her, and a man who's totally in love with his woman describes her as having all the best qualities. Remember in TEotW, when Lan pledged his troth to Nynaeve (while simultaneously rejecting her)? He didn't mention that she was a petulant bully who couldn't stand not getting her way even when she didn't know what she was talking about. Lan of the Many Nicknames just said she was "a lioness..."
Also, IMO Elayne is the most compassionate (not quite the same as empathy, but still) of the three. Min definitely cares about people, especially average folks - but Elayne is the one who worries about folks starving and dying, even when they're not her own people. She wants to do something even when she can't - so you can tell she cares enough to not simply be absorbed by her own life.
I'd say the World itself was of a higher quality in the AoL. They had no war or starvation. They built their society so that one could only advance by benefiting everyone else. This sort of stability allows people room to be educated, and that sort of culture allows people to act "better." Still, that time period produced enough folks of supreme selfishness that some of society's biggest figures decided to screw everyone else over in order to gain power.
I also endorse darius' comments.
I think that the Pattern tries to match up the Dragon with a suitable mate - someone who will satisfy him in every way. Considering he's the greatest man in the world, he needs a woman of equal prowess.
In the AOL, the Pattern might have tried Mierin initially. She seemed to have everything except that her personality was flawed, so that didn't work out. Ilyena seemed to have been the next 'ultimate woman'. We don't know much about her, but she was in no way some cheap barmaid that LTT was attracted to. As Ilyena Sunhair, she seemed to have considerable prowess as an Aes Sedai.
I don't think that any women of equal stature occur in the 3rd Age, which is why the Pattern clumped him with three women. Even if he'd been paired with the best of what the Age had to offer (probably someone like Elayne), he would have felt unfulfilled. Women like Ilyena don't exist anymore. We've seen Egwene and Min feeling unsubstantial when Lanfear appears - and that's just from her appearance.
The three women equalling Ilyena is an old theory, but I do think collectively they are Ilyena's essence - but definitely not her soul or ancestry etc.
Aviendha - passionate, aggressive, dashain Aiel, channeler, attractive
Elayne - educated, noble, channeler, tenacious, attractive
Min - empathy, goodwill, philosophy, uncomplicated, atractive
Ilyena was probably all of these in one.
I do think that AOL women (and men) are of much higher quality. We've only really got the Forsaken to go on, so that makes evidence tough, but ignoring their evil personalities they're remarkably accomplished people in general : almost all of them are attractive, physically strong and well educated. It seems that, like channeling, 3rd Age people are a level down in quality. They're a select group in many ways, so they're poor evidence - but Rand's visions of the AOL showed that the Aes Sedai in the Breaking were generally up there too. There really wasn't much for the Pattern to work with to suit up the DR with a mate.
I personally think that Nynaeve comes closest to AOL greatness (if you believe that Age to be superior : some readers don't). She seems to be an all-round accomplished woman, which is why Legendary Lan likes her so much.
All 3 of his current women offer specific necessities the Dragon can't live without. Min and her viewing, Aviendha brings the Aiel and Elayne the AS. There seems to be Prophetic things involved with them as well ... 3 women on a boat and all that. I'm convinced there will be something else that requires there to be 3 individuals with different abilities ... perhaps the 3 become 1 thing is about them... who knows.
I doubt very much that looks or OP strength have anything to do with Rand, especially since Min can't channel at all! If the Pattern wanted a "more suitable" mate for Rand it would have spun such a woman out. The fact that it didn't tells me that the Pattern actually needed these 3 woman to be separate individuals for a specific reason.
On a side note I find it rather funny that you think Mierin was the "ultimate woman", except for that pesky personality which lead her to be one of the most evil beings of all time ... beauty and OP strength do not make someone "higher quality", IMO she's one of the most flawed characters in the books. So much so that ALL she is is beauty and OP strength. Painfully cliche actually.
Early in the series I thought she was a great character, but over the years I've lost all interest in her because she's kind of pathetic, this is a person who could have done anything she wanted but instead acts like a spoiled child and completely focuses on what she can't have. She's also become so completely predictable that she's not even fun to read about anymore. Personally I'm glad that she's Mindtrapped, at least that way she's got errands to run and stays out of the way.
Matching the Dragon with a mate
- 02/06/2010 10:09:49 AM
1533 Views
I think there is more to these women than simply being the Dragon's Mate
- 02/06/2010 12:09:10 PM
861 Views
I agree with darius. Also, 2/3rds of Rand's women
- 02/06/2010 02:38:13 PM
838 Views
What more IS there to being a woman?
- 02/06/2010 03:52:23 PM
926 Views
Re: What more IS there to being a woman?
- 02/06/2010 04:58:36 PM
776 Views
Re: What more IS there to being a woman?
- 03/06/2010 08:51:25 AM
714 Views
riiiight
- 03/06/2010 11:20:31 AM
650 Views
Re: riiiight
- 03/06/2010 01:53:49 PM
750 Views
the problem with your working out how strong they are is that it always begins with how much
- 03/06/2010 02:14:08 PM
768 Views
Re: the problem with your working out how strong they are is that it always begins with how much
- 03/06/2010 02:23:32 PM
863 Views
I never said that's all they were
- 03/06/2010 08:49:53 AM
742 Views
Re: I never said that's all they were
- 03/06/2010 11:44:51 AM
774 Views
Yeah Nynaeve is fantastic
- 02/06/2010 12:48:56 PM
792 Views
- 02/06/2010 12:48:56 PM
792 Views
oh dear god no
- 02/06/2010 02:41:13 PM
749 Views
Back in the concept days I believe the DR was more like Tam and the love interest
- 02/06/2010 02:55:45 PM
794 Views
Re: Matching the Dragon with a mate
- 02/06/2010 02:15:35 PM
958 Views
*NM*
Great post, but I would disagree with the top part
- 02/06/2010 05:58:59 PM
833 Views
Re: Matching the Dragon with a mate
- 03/06/2010 09:27:05 AM
805 Views
LOL
- 03/06/2010 12:01:27 PM
694 Views
Re: LOL
- 03/06/2010 12:41:20 PM
692 Views
Excellent point!
- 03/06/2010 12:50:03 PM
719 Views
Re: Excellent point!
- 03/06/2010 01:34:04 PM
909 Views
Re: Excellent point!
- 03/06/2010 02:05:19 PM
809 Views
Ah, so by great you mean Ghandi, and not Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great...
- 05/06/2010 08:57:52 AM
645 Views
I think there is more to these characters than being a mate, and I don't think the Pattern cares.
- 02/06/2010 03:23:13 PM
760 Views
Re: I think there is more to these characters than being a mate, and I don't think the Pattern cares
- 02/06/2010 03:40:38 PM
756 Views
I doubt he needs one. They just get in the way.
- 02/06/2010 05:14:08 PM
930 Views
Re: I doubt he needs one. They just get in the way.
- 02/06/2010 08:30:32 PM
731 Views
- 02/06/2010 10:42:17 PM
687 Views
- 02/06/2010 10:42:17 PM
687 Views
Meh. How do we know they aren't awarded the way the Nobel Peace Prize is in our world?
- 02/06/2010 11:33:48 PM
743 Views
I don't know if Lanfear, the perfect woman didn't have a 3rd name it must have been
- 02/06/2010 11:49:02 PM
666 Views