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Re: Well there we have it Shannow Send a noteboard - 13/12/2011 02:12:10 PM

I don't know where you get all your figures from. They seem to be completely random and pulled out of a hat and not at all verifiable.Why was Nynaeve two-thirds of her full strength in book 4 and not at 50% or 90%?

Moghedien is conceivably much weaker than the others because she states that others in the AOL considered her not to be a threat meaning that many tiers exist above her. She has also never been seen with the other Forsaken prior to Moridin appearing and providing her with protection as his slave. Considering outright murder is encouraged in the Shadow, it is illogical to think that anyone is much weaker in the remaining 12 Forsaken. Any of the Forsaken would instantly kill a weaker opponent and yet they cannot do so with each other and dare not risk it. It therefore makes sense to suggest that all of the Forsaken are clustered close to maximum strength. They are after all the strongest channelers in the world.

It all comes down to Nynaeve:

Based on all the evidence we have of female strength progresssion, all the quotes relating to Nynaeve's strength, all the supporting evidence: What percentage of her strength had she reached in tSR?

That's all you need to answer, and the rest is a matter of logical deduction.

Ignoring the Forsaken, all the evidence points to Nynaeve being far from her full strength back then.

If the only reason you place her higher is the need to bring Moghedien closer to the other Forsaken, then you aren't assessing Nynaeve's strength with an open mind.

Come on, be honest: Based on all the information we have on Nynaeve in the entire series, if you had to put your life on it, what percentage of her full strength would you estimate her to be at in Book 4?

That's all that matters.

I think its mad to bet on that sort of thing. We have no idea what, or even if, RJ intended to show any demonstrable strength at these stages of the series.

I would say she was about 60 to 80% of her strength when she fought Moghedien. As always I do not claim that this is nearly accurate, which is one of my problems with your theory, and I definitely don't think anything can be extrapolated from it as you said. How the rest be logical deduction? We dont know anything about the strengths of Graendal or Semirhage relative to Nynaeve.

Moghedien is not useful either. I've said from the beginning of this debate that she is much weaker than the other women, so if her strength is 50 or 90, it still doesnt change my opinion that all of the other Forsaken are close to maximum strength i.e within ten percent of Rand's power.

So your gut feel is 60-80% of her maximum strength. I'd say my estimate of around 70% is slap bang in the middle of your assessment.

As for Semirhage. We know EXACTLY how close she is to Nynaeve's full strength. Sanderson said that she and Nynaeve are virtually equal in strength, with Nynaeve maybe a tad stronger.

So if Nynaeve is at 60-80% of her full strength when she MATCHES Moghedien, then it means that Moghedien is essentially 60-80% as strong as Semirhage.

That's pretty logical.

Brandon was very unsure about that question... He even admitted that he needed to check on it. Considering he once told us how weak Cyndane is (erroneously) I think i might be best for us to wait until we get the whole strength tree.

That said, I have no problem with Moghedien sitting at 80 and the rest at 90 and more. That clearly implies that Egwene is lower which is once debate I've always been vocal about.

I'm happy to delay the verdict on Sandersons accuracy, because I always considered Semirhage to be stronger than Nynaeve, only because I cannot conceive of Alivia being "considerably stronger" than Semirhage. So if Sanderson turns out to be wrong on this one, I'll be delighted.

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Underestimating Forsaken strength Nessarra - 11/12/2011 05:57:22 AM 1860 Views

Ah, my favourite topic makes a return... Shannow - 11/12/2011 07:45:29 AM 757 Views

Re: Ah, my favourite topic makes a return... Nessarra - 11/12/2011 10:25:03 PM 774 Views

Yes, you are probably correct Sidious - 12/12/2011 06:26:07 AM 874 Views

Re: and some of the information given to us is flawed Watcher - 12/12/2011 07:38:59 PM 677 Views

The real question is - What percentage of her full strength did Nynaeve achieve by Book 4? Shannow - 12/12/2011 08:31:30 PM 712 Views

I find that unlikely Sidious - 12/12/2011 09:28:07 PM 680 Views

Easy question for you: Based on the evidence, what percentage of her strength was Nynaeve at in tSR? Shannow - 13/12/2011 07:09:56 AM 649 Views

Well.... Sidious - 13/12/2011 01:12:48 PM 717 Views

Well there we have it Shannow - 13/12/2011 01:36:45 PM 719 Views

Re: Well there we have it Sidious - 13/12/2011 02:06:14 PM 748 Views

Re: Well there we have it Shannow - 13/12/2011 02:12:10 PM 685 Views

Alivia may not even be stronger than Nynaeve... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:14:06 AM 757 Views

That wouldn't surprise me actually *NM* Sidious - 14/12/2011 07:46:47 AM 398 Views

Where would you place Egwene though? fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 09:13:46 AM 662 Views

Re: Where would you place Egwene though? Sidious - 14/12/2011 12:53:49 PM 665 Views

Bonfire next to a candle indeed. Hehehe... Shannow - 14/12/2011 05:50:34 PM 801 Views

fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 06:56:40 PM 620 Views

The same "step" you refer to seperates Egwene from normal Aes Sedai according to RJ... Shannow - 14/12/2011 07:14:55 PM 649 Views

Yes! And...? fionwe1987 - 15/12/2011 02:53:37 AM 658 Views

Yes I would agree with that Sidious - 14/12/2011 08:24:35 PM 808 Views

Alivia with an angreal > > > Cyndane TyrReborn - 14/12/2011 08:50:41 PM 580 Views

No Sidious - 14/12/2011 09:10:34 PM 666 Views

That makes no sense. TyrReborn - 14/12/2011 09:13:48 PM 735 Views

Correct. Shannow - 14/12/2011 09:43:53 PM 681 Views

Re: Correct. Sidious - 15/12/2011 05:54:37 AM 670 Views

So many instances of logical laziness in that post... Shannow - 14/12/2011 10:01:45 PM 1115 Views

Re: So many instances of logical laziness in that post... Sidious - 15/12/2011 06:16:01 AM 597 Views

There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements... Shannow - 15/12/2011 07:03:01 AM 679 Views

Re: There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements... Sidious - 17/12/2011 10:25:47 AM 734 Views

Because a difference of a few % is negligible, and not even worth mentioning... Shannow - 17/12/2011 10:54:49 AM 583 Views

How could you possibly use Gateways... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2011 12:40:03 PM 614 Views

Repyling at bottom of thread for space reasons... *NM* Shannow - 17/12/2011 02:57:43 PM 361 Views

Only slight diffence I have is regarding general AS strength darius_sedai - 30/12/2011 04:45:49 PM 688 Views

I think it was just Aes Sedai hyperbole RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/12/2011 09:51:00 PM 539 Views

And entirely based off your shared assumption. Fanatic-Templar - 14/12/2011 05:15:51 AM 745 Views

Actually that's a lot of logical assumption. *NM* LadyLorraine - 13/12/2011 01:28:00 PM 331 Views

But... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:06:15 AM 546 Views

And darius_sedai - 30/12/2011 05:07:13 PM 648 Views

Yes Cannoli - 13/12/2011 04:16:40 PM 797 Views

Re: Yes RugbyPlayingAshaman - 13/12/2011 04:47:17 PM 704 Views

Nah. Beyond the realm of possibility. Sorry, Shannow - 13/12/2011 05:12:40 PM 762 Views

There are a number of comments from Q&As that shows that this is possible and more complex. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 13/12/2011 08:23:49 PM 729 Views

None of which I disagree with, but a far cry from women being weaker just due to believing it... Shannow - 13/12/2011 08:39:40 PM 630 Views

But that is my point: it wouldn't be merely force of will. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 13/12/2011 09:40:17 PM 625 Views

What Rand is doing... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:43:08 AM 747 Views

That would make sense given Min's vision RugbyPlayingAshaman - 16/12/2011 04:37:56 PM 548 Views

Wait.. I DIDN'T write that! fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:02:04 AM 617 Views

Reply to your question of - "Why use Logain gateway comparison as evidence:" Shannow - 17/12/2011 03:08:19 PM 715 Views

You're basically saying "correlation equals causation"... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2011 06:18:47 AM 662 Views

On gateways Sidious - 18/12/2011 07:17:09 AM 706 Views

Might assume that Elayne is stronger in the Power than Aviendha. echooff - 19/12/2011 02:40:46 PM 894 Views

I suspect he knows that... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2011 05:53:00 PM 614 Views

Nope...some maths problems in your post. Shannow - 19/12/2011 07:41:29 PM 665 Views

But 64 square feet is not Elayne's maximum... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2011 02:46:50 AM 613 Views

But Shielding is also relative. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/12/2011 09:35:11 PM 1877 Views

Re: Underestimating Forsaken strength Tedtheman - 22/12/2011 05:24:53 PM 661 Views

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<quote id="237685">
<quote id="237684"><quote id="237679"><quote id="237672"><quote id="237644"><quote id="237578">I don't know where you get all your figures from. They seem to be completely random and pulled out of a hat and not at all verifiable.Why was Nynaeve two-thirds of her full strength in book 4 and not at 50% or 90%?

Moghedien is conceivably much weaker than the others because she states that others in the AOL considered her not to be a threat meaning that many tiers exist above her. She has also never been seen with the other Forsaken prior to Moridin appearing and providing her with protection as his slave. Considering outright murder is encouraged in the Shadow, it is illogical to think that anyone is much weaker in the remaining 12 Forsaken. Any of the Forsaken would instantly kill a weaker opponent and yet they cannot do so with each other and dare not risk it. It therefore makes sense to suggest that all of the Forsaken are clustered close to maximum strength. They are after all the strongest channelers in the world.

</quote>

It all comes down to Nynaeve:

Based on all the evidence we have of female strength progresssion, all the quotes relating to Nynaeve's strength, all the supporting evidence: What percentage of her strength had she reached in tSR?

That's all you need to answer, and the rest is a matter of logical deduction.

Ignoring the Forsaken, all the evidence points to Nynaeve being far from her full strength back then.

If the only reason you place her higher is the need to bring Moghedien closer to the other Forsaken, then you aren't assessing Nynaeve's strength with an open mind.

Come on, be honest: Based on all the information we have on Nynaeve in the entire series, if you had to put your life on it, what percentage of her full strength would you estimate her to be at in Book 4?

That's all that matters.</quote>

I think its mad to bet on that sort of thing. We have no idea what, or even if, RJ intended to show any demonstrable strength at these stages of the series.

I would say she was about 60 to 80% of her strength when she fought Moghedien. As always I do not claim that this is nearly accurate, which is one of my problems with your theory, and I definitely don't think anything can be extrapolated from it as you said. How the rest be logical deduction? We dont know anything about the strengths of Graendal or Semirhage relative to Nynaeve.

Moghedien is not useful either. I've said from the beginning of this debate that she is much weaker than the other women, so if her strength is 50 or 90, it still doesnt change my opinion that all of the other Forsaken are close to maximum strength i.e within ten percent of Rand's power.</quote>

So your gut feel is 60-80% of her maximum strength. I'd say my estimate of around 70% is slap bang in the middle of your assessment.

As for Semirhage. We know EXACTLY how close she is to Nynaeve's full strength. Sanderson said that she and Nynaeve are virtually equal in strength, with Nynaeve maybe a tad stronger.

So if Nynaeve is at 60-80% of her full strength when she MATCHES Moghedien, then it means that Moghedien is essentially 60-80% as strong as Semirhage.

That's pretty logical.</quote>

That said, I have no problem with Moghedien sitting at 80 and the rest at 90 and more. That clearly implies that Egwene is lower which is once debate I've always been vocal about.</quote>

</quote>

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